TT first hand at table!

[Jay_Whufc]

No reads/stats as first hand at table. Whats my action here?
Incidentally, does everyone re raise here given we are completely in dark over opponents.

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

BTN: $152.75
SB: $27.95
Hero (BB): $50
UTG: $43.85
CO: $83.30

Pre-Flop: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $1, SB calls $0.75, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.25</font>, UTG folds, BTN calls $5.25, <font color="red">SB raises to $20</font>, <font color="red">Hero ???

[kroeliewoelie]

With 3 people in the pot preflop and being OOP to 2, I call for setvalue.

As played the fold to 4bet is easy IMO. This guy in the SB wanted to slowplay a monster and sees it isn;t necessary because he gets action already.

[Spurious]

I like the 3bet preflop, because of the dead money in the pot and we can easily shut down ATs+,AJo+ postflop by cbetting a safe flop.

But we got to fold to his 4bet here.

[Tito]

Nice 3-bet preflop. Gotta fold to the 4-bet though. I'm curious as to why SB just didn't put it all in?? I guess maybe hoping for a call? I've also seen them do this as a total bluff and then fold when you push them all in but I don't know. I would fold with no reads.

[IAGTTAYM]

Well, we need around 34-35% to shove so it's close.
Our 3-bet could easily be a squeeze, so I would probably gamble here.

[ama0330]

lol @ preflop, if you're gonna do this do it with 72o. As played fold but I just call preflop, your hand is good but vulnerable and you want to get to sd - bloating the pot is not a very good way to do this, especially given that you are brand new to the table.

[Khaos4k]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, we need around 34-35% to shove so it's close.
Our 3-bet could easily be a squeeze, so I would probably gamble here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The avg villain in the micros has no idea what a squeeze play is.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
lol @ preflop, if you're gonna do this do it with 72o. As played fold but I just call preflop, your hand is good but vulnerable and you want to get to sd - bloating the pot is not a very good way to do this, especially given that you are brand new to the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points, but I still dont want to play the fifth best pre flop holding in a 5 way min raised pot OOP.
I basically have to c/f all flops with overcards and not know where I really stand when the flop comes 872r for example.
How do you go about getting to SD from preflop in 5 way pot OOP???
I think my 3bet pre flop makes the whole hand so much easier to play post flop. It is quite possible (very likely) you are a better post flop player then I am, which is why you advocate calling. Thats fair enough, but please consider people who, in all likelihood, are not as good postflop.

As for 'lol @ preflop' comment, its a bit condescending tbh

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you go about getting to SD from preflop in 5 way pot OOP???

[/ QUOTE ]

Id rather cf the flop than spend a bunch of money turning my hand into a bluff. You are thinking too much about TT being the "5th best hand in poker", this is 1st level and wont get you anywhere. AA is the best hand in poker until 45s hits a flush, do you see what I mean? TT over 3 streets of betting between 5 people will sometimes be the best hand, but not always. But as a pure bluff, raising ANY hand out of the SB multiway and expecting to take it down either preflop or on the flop is ambitious at best.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you go about getting to SD from preflop in 5 way pot OOP???

[/ QUOTE ]

Id rather cf the flop than spend a bunch of money turning my hand into a bluff. You are thinking too much about TT being the "5th best hand in poker", this is 1st level and wont get you anywhere. AA is the best hand in poker until 45s hits a flush, do you see what I mean? TT over 3 streets of betting between 5 people will sometimes be the best hand, but not always. But as a pure bluff, raising ANY hand out of the SB multiway and expecting to take it down either preflop or on the flop is ambitious at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not raising as a bluff, Im raising for value, I believe I have the best hand and dont want to let crap like K5s or QJo get a cheap flop to outdraw me.
My mention of the fifth best hand in poker was basically me saying I think 1010 is a little too strong to start playing a multiway pot here, 22-99 I just call along.

[ama0330]

But TT is exactly the same as 99, or 88, or any mid to small PP - cant stand overcards on the flop and will be vulnerable in what is likley to be a multiway raised pot out of position, and forced to turn itself into a bluff on the flop by cbetting, being floated and cf the turn. You must think about the play to the river and what type of flops you are going to be able to continue OOP in a multiway raised pot, and there arent many.

[Jay_Whufc]

Ama, how do you play JJ there?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Ama, how do you play JJ there?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the subject of a whole thread which you'll find on the front page. I havent inputted there yet but Ive been flatcalling there with good results so far and Im thinking about defaulting to that line.

[ama0330]

Also, more than anything the fact that this is your first hand at the table should make you more apt to be cautious rather than aggressive particularly out of position because you have no idea of your opponents calling tendencies.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ama, how do you play JJ there?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the subject of a whole thread which you'll find on the front page. I havent inputted there yet but Ive been flatcalling there with good results so far and Im thinking about defaulting to that line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true, thanks I will have a read. I personally think JJ is an easy 3bet, 99 is an easy call and 1010 is very marginal, thus our difference of opinion maybe?
Possibly the other thread will change my thinking though.

Edit: this also comes down to reads (of which I had none here) and post flop skill. 3betting pre flop makes later decisions somewhat easier I feel

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, more than anything the fact that this is your first hand at the table should make you more apt to be cautious rather than aggressive particularly out of position because you have no idea of your opponents calling tendencies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely Agree

[Jay_Whufc]

Back to the actual hand, what sorta range do we put SB on?
IMO he never has QQ-AA here, JJ I think is a possibility but I think this is AJ, AQ, KQ, lower PP etc.
Given the dead money and the fact he is a shortstack (another reason to widen his range) I think I can shove as an +EV play.
Opinions?

[ama0330]

His range is weighted towards hands which are ahead of yours. I would say sometimes AA/KK but something more like QQ/JJ, AK, AQs, stuff like that. Its either "cool I got action now I push" or "wow I just want to get it in because I dont want to play postflop". I personally fold pretty easily, its a flip at best and readless I lay it down.

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
Back to the actual hand, what sorta range do we put SB on?
IMO he never has QQ-AA here, JJ I think is a possibility but I think this is AJ, AQ, KQ, lower PP etc.
Given the dead money and the fact he is a shortstack (another reason to widen his range) I think I can shove as an +EV play.
Opinions?

[/ QUOTE ]
As played I agree. I think a lot of people may have missed that the SB cold called and then repopped preflop. I wouldn't say he never has JJ+ there, but I think it is rare.

[IlPug]

I hate to agree with the consensus, but I don't think I like this 3-bet either.

Sure, you fold out junk, which makes the hand easier to play when the flop is raggy, but who are you getting calls from here? Hands that are either small-dogs or big favorites (okay so maybe the occasional smaller PP, but without reads this can still lead to an icky situation post-flop, since ranges will be fairly narrow after the 3-bet). So it folds out weaker hands, and could win the pot pre-flop but then, as ama said, using that logic why not make the same play with 72o?

I think the best line here, without reads, is to call and play fit-or-fold.


Edit for slow post: Your right, he might be skewed abit to the Ax range, but again, without reads, who knows? So you might be slightly +ev here. Maybe call/shove if you want to gamble?

[wslee00]

wow - SB cold calls first time around, and then re-raises... why the hell would any of you guys put him on a premium hand

easy push imo, you are most likely 50/50 at worst and killing him at best.

[wslee00]

also - if UTG raiser made a real raise, you have a case for calling pre-flop, but the min-raise pf means a mandatory 3-bet pre-flop. i don't think this is even debatable - do you know how wide people's ranges are for calling min-raises? it's HUGE - no way i let them see a flop for cheap and then have no idea where I am.

[thoman8r]

[ QUOTE ]
Back to the actual hand, what sorta range do we put SB on?
IMO he never has QQ-AA here, JJ I think is a possibility but I think this is AJ, AQ, KQ, lower PP etc.
Given the dead money and the fact he is a shortstack (another reason to widen his range) I think I can shove as an +EV play.
Opinions?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's KK+ sometimes, and AK a lot. He is shortstack but you also have the button who is super deep left to act behind you, and there's no guarantee he won't cold call or even shove. I still think this is a fold.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
wow - SB cold calls first time around, and then re-raises... why the hell would any of you guys put him on a premium hand

easy push imo, you are most likely 50/50 at worst and killing him at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

against what range exactly?

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow - SB cold calls first time around, and then re-raises... why the hell would any of you guys put him on a premium hand

easy push imo, you are most likely 50/50 at worst and killing him at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

against what range exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen players do this with a ridiculously wide range, but w/o a read on this guy it's hard to say. But against an unknown I'm including all pocket pairs, most suited Aces and broadway cards.

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow - SB cold calls first time around, and then re-raises... why the hell would any of you guys put him on a premium hand

easy push imo, you are most likely 50/50 at worst and killing him at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

against what range exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]
well, let's see, he cold calls pre-flop from the SB, where he will be completely OOP against 3 opponents for the rest of the hand and then pushes over the top only when OP re-raises? A premium hand makes no sense to me here unless he's ridiculously bad.

When I think about it more, I think we are most likely killing his range, which would be weighted highly towards 22-TT, with a very minority range of JJ+, AT+

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
A premium hand makes no sense to me here unless he's ridiculously bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
first hand at table!

[/ QUOTE ]

[wslee00]

so you assume all your opponents are ridiculously bad when you play?

[TTStrangler]

[ QUOTE ]
so you assume all your opponents are ridiculously bad when you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, I have no solid advice here that hasn't already been shared, but I think SB has already est himself as ridiculously bad no matter what he holds.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so you assume all your opponents are ridiculously bad when you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, I have no solid advice here that hasn't already been shared, but I think SB has already est himself as ridiculously bad no matter what he holds.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed but that doesnt make a call any more correct

[Jay_Whufc]

What range do you put SB on Ama?

[ama0330]

Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

[cubase]

Grunch.

I shove here. The SB's range is pretty much AK, AQ, AJ, and PP's like 77-99. Occasionally he will have AA/KK or QQ (and if so, take notes), but I've rarely seen it.

With all the dead money in the pot against this range, it's a clear shove.

Hand 0: 53.671% 53.46% 00.21% 461401200 1778850.00 { TT }
Hand 1: 46.329% 46.12% 00.21% 398042316 1778850.00 { QQ+, 99-77, AJs+, AJo+ }

He could have lower PP's as well than 77, I have seen some folks do this with 22-99, but it is usually when they are ultra short on cash. If you have $50 and they have $18 or so, they limp, you raise, they shove, it's almost always 22-TT, AK, AQ, AJ, ATs, and sometimes even Axs.

Note: If the button comes along for the ride, it just makes your shove even better value. He almost always has Ax or a PP smaller than yours if he calls.

[IlPug]

[ QUOTE ]
Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is it 65 with premium hands? While I'm not sure if I agree with the other posters, I am inclined to think that his range is more likely a mid-strength hand. Can you explain your reasoning here?

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is it 65 with premium hands? While I'm not sure if I agree with the other posters, I am inclined to think that his range is more likely a mid-strength hand. Can you explain your reasoning here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im with you, using Amas range, Im weighting it 10 / 60-80 / 20-40 with the most important part being 10% for the premium range, Im quite sure they have a premium hand no where near 65% here

[Daniel LeClaire]

I'm surprised to see so many people saying just to call preflop. Had you called, 8 other posters would be in here saying to 3 bet lol.

Personally, I like the 3 bet preflop. No one has shown strength and you figure to have the best hand. After BU calls, and SB reraises, I would shove. SB has $28 in his stack and this is a donkey move. His range is huge. With the dead money in the pot, it more than makes up for the times you are behind.

[IlPug]

i dont know, if they're really bad, they could be doing it more often than 10% i think, im just trying to see his reasoning here, so i can make a decision myself, atm, its pretty close, even if that makes me a flip-flopper after my earlier post.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is it 65 with premium hands? While I'm not sure if I agree with the other posters, I am inclined to think that his range is more likely a mid-strength hand. Can you explain your reasoning here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im with you, using Amas range, Im weighting it 10 / 60-80 / 20-40 with the most important part being 10% for the premium range, Im quite sure they have a premium hand no where near 65% here

[/ QUOTE ]

we know quite literally nothing about our opponent other than that he has played the hand poorly. what we DO know is that he has put half his stack in the pot and likely wants to put the rest in also. now he might be dumb, but given that we know nothing about him we have to assume that he's got at least AQs+, in my opinion. I can almost completely discount hands like 77-88.

[Jay_Whufc]

Not that it really matters, I shoved figuring to be in a coinflip (with money in pot making it +EV) and quite sure I was not crushed all that often, he had A6o, turned an Ace, nice.
I suppose it comes down to a matter of opinion really.
I have seen this kind of play made by so much crap, like any Ace, 2 broadway cards, mid PP etc that I was quite happy to get it in here.
Also, I think wslees posts are very good, especially the point about the first raise being a min raise, if UTG raises to 4BB and everyone else calls, I think Im much more inclined to just call.

[IlPug]

ama,

i've agreed with you so far, and i have to say i'm probably in your boat, if only marginally, for the fact that i dont think i would want to gamble in this spot right now. i don't know if we can just abt discount smaller PPs, a dumbass might play it this way (limping for 'set-value', then reraising figuring they're ahead and scared of playing the hand post flop), and we cant really rule out SB as a dumb ass. i also dont think he's making this play with premium hands 65% of the time, but think its probably more than 10%. so, is your reasoning that, because he's dumb, he's gonna have AQs+ more often than a smaller PP? and why?

again, im just trying to see your line of thinking so i can make up my own.

[ama0330]

I don't know. Im a pessimist?

There are so many reasons that someone could play a hand like this, "he's a retard" being only one of them. When I play poker I like to take information from as many different sources as possible to form a coherent whole, which I can then act on. This line is no specific hand, it is up to how you feel about the situation, and I feel like its a mandatory fold. I like to give total unknowns the benefit of the doubt as I think that 100bb is too much to pay for a read.

[You're No Daisy]

Next time just call the PF raise. I know a lot of people are advocating a 3-bet here and the SB is terrible. But seriously, do we really want to put our whole stack at risk on a coin flip seeing as this is the first hand at the table. It's not a great way to start off your session. As played, fold to the re-raise. It's 40% of your stack.

AC

[IlPug]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know. Im a pessimist?

There are so many reasons that someone could play a hand like this, "he's a retard" being only one of them. When I play poker I like to take information from as many different sources as possible to form a coherent whole, which I can then act on. This line is no specific hand, it is up to how you feel about the situation, and I feel like its a mandatory fold. I like to give total unknowns the benefit of the doubt as I think that 100bb is too much to pay for a read.

[/ QUOTE ]


Lol, okay. Thanks, wasn't sure if I was missing something huge there. I pretty much agree with you - as I said, I dont really like the idea of gambling here, when the potential edge is quite small. This is def. not as clear cut as I first thought though.

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know. Im a pessimist?

There are so many reasons that someone could play a hand like this, "he's a retard" being only one of them. When I play poker I like to take information from as many different sources as possible to form a coherent whole, which I can then act on. This line is no specific hand, it is up to how you feel about the situation, and I feel like its a mandatory fold. I like to give total unknowns the benefit of the doubt as I think that 100bb is too much to pay for a read.

[/ QUOTE ]


Lol, okay. Thanks, wasn't sure if I was missing something huge there. I pretty much agree with you - as I said, I dont really like the idea of gambling here, when the potential edge is quite small. This is def. not as clear cut as I first thought though.

[/ QUOTE ]
ilPUG, in your previous post you say that you weight 10% of his range to be premium hands, now you're saying the potential edge is quite small - seems like you haven't really made up your mind yet...

and ama - you can definitely put him on a range with how the action went, to say that your decision should be based on feel seems wrong here

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is it 65 with premium hands? While I'm not sure if I agree with the other posters, I am inclined to think that his range is more likely a mid-strength hand. Can you explain your reasoning here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im with you, using Amas range, Im weighting it 10 / 60-80 / 20-40 with the most important part being 10% for the premium range, Im quite sure they have a premium hand no where near 65% here

[/ QUOTE ]

we know quite literally nothing about our opponent other than that he has played the hand poorly. what we DO know is that he has put half his stack in the pot and likely wants to put the rest in also. now he might be dumb, but given that we know nothing about him we have to assume that he's got at least AQs+, in my opinion. I can almost completely discount hands like 77-88.

[/ QUOTE ]

AMA.. why are you discounting hands like 77-88 here so much? I can discount AA/KK here much more. SB is almost closing the action w/ just you left to act. He is very rarely just smooth calling here PF w/ AA/KK and wanting to see a flop 4 handed. IMO, this is typically 55-99, ATs+, AJo+ far more often than JJ+.

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
Next time just call the PF raise. I know a lot of people are advocating a 3-bet here and the SB is terrible. But seriously, do we really want to put our whole stack at risk on a coin flip seeing as this is the first hand at the table. It's not a great way to start off your session. As played, fold to the re-raise. It's 40% of your stack.

AC

[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew it was a flip.. not getting your money in here is bad with &gt;$7 in dead money already from UTG and BTN not to mention the money you've already invested.

SBs stack : $27.95
UTG : $1 invested, already folded
BTN : $6.25 invested already (covers all)
You : $6.25 invested already (covers SB)

SB has put in $20 of his stack also and is basically never folding. What chances to you think you can fold out BTN by shoving? If you think you can fold out BTN a bunch by shoving, then you should clearly shove.

You'll be wagering $21.70 to win a $65.15 pot.

How can you not like getting 2:1 when you are flipping vs his entire range?

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is it 65 with premium hands? While I'm not sure if I agree with the other posters, I am inclined to think that his range is more likely a mid-strength hand. Can you explain your reasoning here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im with you, using Amas range, Im weighting it 10 / 60-80 / 20-40 with the most important part being 10% for the premium range, Im quite sure they have a premium hand no where near 65% here

[/ QUOTE ]

we know quite literally nothing about our opponent other than that he has played the hand poorly. what we DO know is that he has put half his stack in the pot and likely wants to put the rest in also. now he might be dumb, but given that we know nothing about him we have to assume that he's got at least AQs+, in my opinion. I can almost completely discount hands like 77-88.

[/ QUOTE ]

AMA.. why are you discounting hands like 77-88 here so much? I can discount AA/KK here much more. SB is almost closing the action w/ just you left to act. He is very rarely just smooth calling here PF w/ AA/KK and wanting to see a flop 4 handed. IMO, this is typically 55-99, ATs+, AJo+ far more often than JJ+.

[/ QUOTE ]
+1

I think this is a situation where you can put yourself in SB's shoes and see how wide his range really is. First, SB is shortstacked. Given that we don't know how he got this way, I think it is safe to assume that he has bled chips through poor play. The reason behind this assumption is the way he has played this hand, which is clearly terrible regardless of what he is holding.

SB could be simply tired of getting run over and realizes that the pot is large and if he wants to play, he might as well get his stack in right now to increase his chances of taking down the hand. I think his most likely holding is any pocket pair. I know I've seen this line a few times from unknowns and when they've been looked up, it has been 55-99 more often than it has been TT+. So I'm shoving and feeling pretty good about it.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Next time just call the PF raise. I know a lot of people are advocating a 3-bet here and the SB is terrible. But seriously, do we really want to put our whole stack at risk on a coin flip seeing as this is the first hand at the table. It's not a great way to start off your session. As played, fold to the re-raise. It's 40% of your stack.

AC

[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew it was a flip.. not getting your money in here is bad with &gt;$7 in dead money already from UTG and BTN not to mention the money you've already invested.

SBs stack : $27.95
UTG : $1 invested, already folded
BTN : $6.25 invested already (covers all)
You : $6.25 invested already (covers SB)

SB has put in $20 of his stack also and is basically never folding. What chances to you think you can fold out BTN by shoving? If you think you can fold out BTN a bunch by shoving, then you should clearly shove.

You'll be wagering $21.70 to win a $65.15 pot.

How can you not like getting 2:1 when you are flipping vs his entire range?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice

[Hail Eris]

Jesus, shortstack villain overlimped from the SB behind two. This is the easiest shove ever, and villain is often drawing to 2 outs. PF is meh. I prefer calling because you have no reads.

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer calling because you have no reads.

[/ QUOTE ]
you do realize that it was a min-raise pf?

[Hail Eris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I prefer calling because you have no reads.

[/ QUOTE ]
you do realize that it was a min-raise pf?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it didn't even occur me since I saw everyone ragging on PF.

WTF people!

[Pokey]

Two comments:

<font color="blue">1. Smooth-call preflop.</font>

Yeah, it's a small bet. Yeah, you've probably got the best hand. Yeah, you're probably ahead at the moment. But -- so what? The flop is going to 100% transform this hand. With $4 in the pot, getting all-in when you hit your set will become quite easy if anybody has an even remotely-decent hand postflop. If you raise you take a big chance to win a small amount of money: you're going to be OOP in a possibly multiway pot where there's a roughly 70% chance that an overcard will hit on the flop. Which overcards kill your hand? You won't know until showdown. Are you really going to be comfortable getting all-in with an unimproved TT if there's a J, Q, K, or A on the board? Do you really think that if a scare card hits you're going to be able to check it down for a cheap showdown? On the flop your hand will either go W*A*Y up in value (if you hit a T), W*A*Y down in value (if an overcard hits), or go up in value slightly (if all undercards hit). Why build a huge pot while there's this much uncertainty? Postflop you'll either be comfortable getting it ALL in or comfortable folding; pay your fifty cents and see if you've got a winner. If you do, you'll be winning TONS of money for your monster. At this point, you literally have POT odds to call for set value -- take those odds. Otherwise, you'll be OOP in a HUGE pot with what is likely to be a below-average hand, and three looooong streets away from a showdown.

<font color="blue">2. Push.</font>

As played, I think you have to plug your nose and put it all in; the reason is Button. He's smooth-called twice, which indicates a mediocre hand. Ideally, you'd like to take some more dead money from him, but if you've got money behind you're setitng yourself up to make some serious postflop mistakes. Smooth-calling leaves you pot-committed and hating it on about 2/3rds of all flops. Better is a push which puts the money in while you have the likely best hand. SB is coming along for the ride, because he's only got $7 behind and the pot will have over $50 after you push and button folds. You trap an extra $6.25 in dead money from button. You also isolate for 55 BBs instead of risking all 100 BBs.

SB scares me, here -- that reraise could be aces if he's a trappy player. Without reads, I really can't say for sure what he's got, and it scares the bejeezus out of me. However, I'm getting almost 2-to-1 odds if Button folds, and it's hard to put SB on a range narrow enough to make those bad odds with TT.

I'm still pissed at myself for turning a speculative hand into an all-in preflop commitment, but against SB I think I'm pot-committed. I push to isolate and get Button out of the hand, or at least to charge him the maximium to try to draw out on me. I also give him the biggest possible chance to make a FTOP mistake right now.

And to think that you could have closed the action for only fifty cents.... *sigh*

[Hail Eris]

One thing that people seem to be missing is that there is so much money in the pot by the time the action gets to us, that taking it down immediately returns 3.5ptbb/hand with TT, which is more mileage than most people get with it (more than you get when you setmine with small PPs). Moreover, it does not turn our hand into a bluff, because

1) after this donkish PF action, we can play TT +EV postflop even oop in a 3bet pot unless we suck, and

2) squeezing here gives our opponents rope to make precisely the mistake that SB is making here, and we can snapshove and profit because we have the 5th best starting hand in NLHE and it's highly unlikely that anyone has better.

For these reasons, I think turning TT into 22 here is burning money, which is not very surprising when you think about it.

[Noobler]

Pokey and Ama, thanks for the excellent explanations.

I am somewhat of a nit so I was curious about what scenarios would I want to make a raise. Lets say that I am still OOP and still no reads, what hand would I want to make a raise with QQ+? JJ+(I did not see the post Ama was referring too. I didn't see any posts dealing with JJ on the first couple of pages).

What about if there was one less person in the pot does that change your decision? Say the button folded, do you still see a cheap flop or raise it? What if button called, but sb folded(a little worse position then button folding scenario)?

[wslee00]

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One thing that people seem to be missing is that there is so much money in the pot by the time the action gets to us, that taking it down immediately returns 3.5ptbb/hand with TT, which is more mileage than most people get with it (more than you get when you setmine with small PPs). Moreover, it does not turn our hand into a bluff, because

1) after this donkish PF action, we can play TT +EV postflop even oop in a 3bet pot unless we suck, and

2) squeezing here gives our opponents rope to make precisely the mistake that SB is making here, and we can snapshove and profit because we have the 5th best starting hand in NLHE and it's highly unlikely that anyone has better.

For these reasons, I think turning TT into 22 here is burning money, which is not very surprising when you think about it.

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thank you hail - i really think the two decisions being discussed here are pretty straightforward

[Jay_Whufc]

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And to think that you could have closed the action for only fifty cents.... *sigh*

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Almost as condescending as Ama...

[IlPug]

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I don't know. Im a pessimist?

There are so many reasons that someone could play a hand like this, "he's a retard" being only one of them. When I play poker I like to take information from as many different sources as possible to form a coherent whole, which I can then act on. This line is no specific hand, it is up to how you feel about the situation, and I feel like its a mandatory fold. I like to give total unknowns the benefit of the doubt as I think that 100bb is too much to pay for a read.

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Lol, okay. Thanks, wasn't sure if I was missing something huge there. I pretty much agree with you - as I said, I dont really like the idea of gambling here, when the potential edge is quite small. This is def. not as clear cut as I first thought though.

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ilPUG, in your previous post you say that you weight 10% of his range to be premium hands, now you're saying the potential edge is quite small - seems like you haven't really made up your mind yet...

and ama - you can definitely put him on a range with how the action went, to say that your decision should be based on feel seems wrong here

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I never said that I'd weight 10% of his hands as premium. I did say, I didn't think it was as high as 65 nor as low as 10%. And no, I really haven't made up my mind and I'm flip flopping alot /images/graemlins/grin.gif.