The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB

[ama0330]

<font color="blue">I believe this is one of the hardest spots to figure out in uNL - mid strength hands from the SB where the flop is threatening. I have some theories about what is the best line and whatnot but I'm posting this more for you guys because I'm interested in what the genral consensus is about this hand.

Villain is standard, 19/16/3 over a good sample, no history this session and he's just a meow chow TAG, but you respect his game. Assume for now that there is no metagame or specific image involved.

Comment on the hand on all streets, and list your plan for the entirety of the hand, detailing what you intend to do if certain cards fall on the turn and river, as well as what you do if your opponent does something you were not anticipating. </font>


Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

Hero (BB): $50
UTG: $42.95
CO: $119.65
BTN: $59.50
SB: $57.55

Pre-Flop: J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.75</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, CO calls $4.25

Flop: ($12.25) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
Hero hitches up his pants and...

[Micro Donk]

i bet fold around 9. seems like a TAG is much more likely to raise/call a mid-pp then a hand like AJ-AQ, and if we check, he may bluff at it trying to represent the ace, and even if we c/c the flop, he would put us on exactly what we have and 2 barrel at least...

id rather b/f flop, people tend to not bluff 3b pots with an ace on the flop

if he calls, im done with the hand unless i improve

edit: i shouldnt say hes more likely to raise/call with mid pp than AQ since hes probably doing both, but theres more mid pps in his range than Ax hands

[Hebel]

[ QUOTE ]
i bet fold around 9. seems like a TAG is much more likely to raise/call a mid-pp then a hand like AJ-AQ, and if we check, he may bluff at it trying to represent the ace, and even if we c/c the flop, he would put us on exactly what we have and 2 barrel at least...

id rather b/f flop, people tend to not bluff 3b pots with an ace on the flop

if he calls, im done with the hand unless i improve

[/ QUOTE ]

my line exactly

edit: im always leading 3/4ths pot, same as i always do

[AFCBeer]

Me too

[Gelford]

And bets 7$ and gives up to resistance depending on tells and reads.


He seems to have a wide range, tho no history, so it's hard to say, but on the other hand, can you really put him on solely an Ace ?


Anyways, if nothing else shania likes a bet here


Edit: nine is also a fine bet

[yegon]

I'd do the same with JJ as I would with TT or AK here and that is bet 9-10$ on the flop. Obv if I am raised I fold JJ. If I am called I check/fold turn.

[ama0330]

What do you think about preflop? And what hands, if any, would you check here?

[CashMoney1995]

not cbetting here sucks a lot. fire like 7.50 and obv fold to a raise.

[Micro Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about preflop? And what hands, if any, would you check here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think preflop is pretty standard

i dont think im checking any hands im 3betting in this spot...

[Hebel]

i like a 3bet pf because co, a solid tag, can be raising a huge range, and this hand would be a lot harder to play if we smooth call and the flop comes overcard undercard uncercard rather than if we reraise and get a flop like this. tbh id rather just take it down pf and not even see a flop, i really hate jj

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about preflop? And what hands, if any, would you check here?

[/ QUOTE ]


Balance it the key word


Ask your self first what good hands you would check here ... and how you would play those in a spot like this, then do it with trash once in a rare while too.


This is not trash, but ... ehh .... I had a long argument with the artist formerly know as jonyy about spots like these, where he advocated checking and I said bet.

Oop I like betting, ip ... you can check behing for potcontrol and value extraction, that is my pow.

[derosnec]

quick glance and giving him a range of 55+, AJo+ (since many TAGs call 3bets with PPs liberally), it looks like there are probably are around 40 combos or so that he might continue with Ax, AA, TT and probably 30 or 40 he'll fold. So I guess bet 1/2 pot. should be profitable. but i always check here, so i probably have no idea what i'm doing (i.e., don't listen to me).

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about preflop? And what hands, if any, would you check here?

[/ QUOTE ]


Balance it the key word


Ask your self first what good hands you would check here ... and how you would play those in a spot like this, then do it with trash once in a rare while too.


This is not trash, but ... ehh .... I had a long argument with the artist formerly know as jonyy about spots like these, where he advocated checking and I said bet.

Oop I like betting, ip ... you can check behing for potcontrol and value extraction, that is my pow.

[/ QUOTE ]i so knew u would chime in and respond to this thread

[Gelford]

Yeah after having the argument with jonyy, we repeated it by pm .... tho if this post wasn't started by Andrew, I most likely wouldn't have read it /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[yegon]

[ QUOTE ]
quick glance and giving him a range of 55+, AJo+ (since many TAGs call 3bets with PPs liberally), it looks like there are probably are around 40 combos or so that he might continue with Ax, AA, TT and probably 30 or 40 he'll fold. So I guess bet 1/2 pot. should be profitable. but i always check here, so i probably have no idea what i'm doing (i.e., don't listen to me).

[/ QUOTE ]

if it's 50/50 that he'll fold than a full pot bet should be profitable so it's ok to bet 3/4 of the pot.

But I don't see anything wrong with betting half pot as you suggested. The pot is big because of the pf 3bet so it's unlikely he'll bluff or continue with worse than JJ.

[yegon]

as for checking the flop, the only thing that speaks for a check is the fact that our opponent is good and he should read us for JJ, QQ, KK. So I can see myself checking AK, TT against him if I thought he might try to bluff me.

To do this with JJ would mean to give him credit to be able to look through our check as it being a tricky move with a monster. I think we are getting too sofisticated here for microlimits though /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

so my default line would still be to allways bet the flop.

[matrix]

My game is TAGgy 23/17 ish and I think preflops not too great.

Yes sometimes we gots to raise (whether we should raise or not I think has more to do with recent table history than much else) but more often than not I flat call and reeval after the flop drops.

Sometimes he's stealing or at least raising the bottom part of his range (the part we are WA of) and a 3bet folds these hands often. He'll call with hands we are slightly ahead of (AK/AQ/etc) which will land us OOP in an inflated pot having to fire blind into the villain and when an overcard to our pair flops we are in downtown RIO and will win a little or lose a stack.

IF the villain who open raised tends to call 3bets and fold to flop aggression I am ore inclined to 3bet pre - my standard play is to call and keep the pot small - I'd guess I 3bet ~30% and call the rest.

Seeing as we did raise and we are here now I think we have to make a bet and rep AK and to do that 1/2 pot is the way forward - fold to further aggro unless we spike the set cos a meowchow TAG villain here is rarely calling/raising our flop bet with a hand that TPGK would beat (and we have less than that)

My line with pairs ike TT/JJ here is to play them pretty much the same way I'd play 22/33

[Gelford]

Yeah I often flatcall JJ here as well, tho it depends on villian, if he is raising a lot in lp, then I'm just looking to felt JJ.

[el_grande]

I think betting $7 is weak. You are repping AK, and that means you need to bet at $9 or more with this board.

[Gelford]

it is a RR's pot, betting 7$ is treatening villians entire stack!

The only reason for betting 9 is the FD and a need to protect your AK a wee bit.

But it is in no way weak.

[Chomp]

I'm with derosnec and jonyy.

Villain has a pp or a big A, right? I think he bets his A/set almost always if checked to, and rarely bets non-A/set hands.

So I have no problem c/f flop. If villain checks flop behind, I then move into value-mode, which often means chk'ing again on turn, then vb river to get a call from 22+.

If I chk turn, I'll call a lot of bets (which costs the same as a cb, but might come from worse than JJ and gets me to SD).

And I don't care if I am showing weakness anywhere here - villain still needs to grow the balls to bet without the A. TAG villains will be fearing some kind of A slowplay all the way throughout the hand and won't go nuts without one IMO.

I should say that would be my instinct, but would play it differently on occasion.

[Gelford]

So chomp ... would you check AK here too ??

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]


if it's 50/50 that he'll fold than a full pot bet should be profitable so it's ok to bet 3/4 of the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

er no - this is a RERAISED pot. imo betting more than 1/2 pot on any flop with ANY hand in a reraised pot is SPEW.

Look how big the pot will be if he calls a 3/4 pot bet relative to the stacks we are playing with.

What does a 3/4 pot bet accomplish that a half pot bet doesn't? - whether we flop an OP to the board a set or an underpair on an Ace high flop?

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is big because of the pf 3bet so it's unlikely he'll bluff or continue with worse than JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

So a 3/4 pot bet if we are planning to bet/fold wastes 1/4 of the pot worth of BB's - SPEW. Worse than that if villain flat calls our flop bet the pot is so big we have a tough decision to make if a brick Turns.

[Micro Donk]

if im villain and i get checked to, im going to bet a fair % of the time putting you on a JJ-KK hand

[Profish2285]

Yea so am I. Of course recently donks have owned me with a slow played top set when I do this, but hey Im sure it works sometimes. I never really thought about cold calling with JJ pre flop, but Matrix brings up some very interesting points. If villain is going to fold almost the entire part of his range that we want him to play, then why raise? I might try experimenting with this seeing how this works out.

[derosnec]

luckily for all of you, i have no life and have taken detailed notes on all of aba's vids

looking at the notes, revealed these hands he played (similar enough i think; at the very least we get to see what good players do)


BTN opens. Aba 3bets 77 in SB. JTx flop (two hearts). Aba cbets.

CO opens. Aba 3bets JJ OTB. CO checks. Aba cbets ATx flop (two diamonds). Get raised. Aba folds.

BTN opens (multitabler). Aba 3bets K7o in BB. Aba cbets Axx flop.

[el_grande]

[ QUOTE ]
it is a RR's pot, betting 7$ is treatening villians entire stack!

The only reason for betting 9 is the FD and a need to protect your AK a wee bit.

But it is in no way weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was villain a $7 bet on this board would make me think my QQ or Ax is good. I would also consider bluff raising. I see AK or AQ for hero unlikely after a $7 bet. It really looks like JJ-KK.

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
So chomp ... would you check AK here too ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, yes. For value, control, and to deny villain equity on the flop.

But I underastand the point you are making - that we are telling villain we don't have AK when we check. But this is incorrect IMO. Decent TAG villains will not just assume this, and will often fear a crai/slowplay of some kind when we check.

I also think that any idea that we need to play our weaker hands like our stronger ones is wrong here.

Besides, why do we want to represent AK? To fold out QQ/KK? Good luck doing that with one little cbet.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

Besides, why do we want to represent AK? To fold out QQ/KK? Good luck doing that with one little cbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No ... it is to make him felt QQ/KK next time around when we actually have AK.

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Besides, why do we want to represent AK? To fold out QQ/KK? Good luck doing that with one little cbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No ... it is to make him felt QQ/KK next time around when we actually have AK.

[/ QUOTE ]


Gelford, with respect, will this villain remember this hand next time and happily felt his QQ/KK becuase he once saw us cb JJ on an A-hi board? Surely not. Surely not. Or at least, so rarely that it shouldn't effect our effort to maximise EV here and now.

Besides, if we bet and he folds, he doesn't know we didn't have AK, right?

[el_grande]

I think most uNL villains are thinking about hand values before they are thinking that their stack is in jeopardy when they have $35 behind.

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
luckily for all of you, i have no life and have taken detailed notes on all of aba's vids

looking at the notes, revealed these hands he played (similar enough i think; at the very least we get to see what good players do)


BTN opens. Aba 3bets 77 in SB. JTx flop (two hearts). Aba cbets.

CO opens. Aba 3bets JJ OTB. CO checks. Aba cbets ATx flop (two diamonds). Get raised. Aba folds.

BTN opens (multitabler). Aba 3bets K7o in BB. Aba cbets Axx flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Derosnec, I think these are all significantly different to Ama's hand - I'd cb in each of those spots too (like aba lol), but not in Ama's hand.


Edit to say I am wrong here - the second hand is the same as Ama's hand.

[Profish2285]

Chomp, the second hand is almost exactly the same as the one listed by op.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it is a RR's pot, betting 7$ is treatening villians entire stack!

The only reason for betting 9 is the FD and a need to protect your AK a wee bit.

But it is in no way weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was villain a $7 bet on this board would make me think my QQ or Ax is good. I would also consider bluff raising. I see AK or AQ for hero unlikely after a $7 bet. It really looks like JJ-KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think wrong.

On this flop I'd bet $7 with JJ $7 with 67cc $7 with AK $7 with AA $7 with 53hh ....

if you call my flop bet and I have strong draw or a made hand that beats one pair I C/Rall-in on any turn I probably C/R you all-in if a /images/graemlins/heart.gif turns up regardless of my hand.

If you raise my flop bet I fold the air hands and you get nothing more from me - and over time all those extra $2 you guys are spewing where you bet $9 and fold to a raise - I keep all them in my bankroll.

The BIGGEST mistakes in poker are the small ones we make over and over and over and over...

Thinking a $7 bet is weak but a $9 bet is strong is looking too much at the dollar amounts being bet and not thinking at all on what will/might happen on later streets.

Hell if we half pot this flop and get called and then half pot the turn and that gets called the pot on the river is &gt;$50 and we'd only have a half pot bet left in our stack

[Gelford]

Chomp ... I've had this argument before (tho I'm not digging up the jonyy thread)


I do not like getting fancy for the sake of 'value' oop.

EV wise it might not matter a lot whether you do one or the other, you claim to be getting value ... but you're also giving free cards and must expect to call two bets most likely ... sometimes an ace will be there .. sometimes KK ... sometimes AhKh



My main concern is simplicity ... by checking you open up a pandoras box .. but betting 7$ you effectively end the hand (at least til you start noticing that he is a floater), it is pure it is simple and honestly, it is not where you find great EV.


But what it does is making you play wierdly and tricky oop, which in my experience develops and suddenly you find yourself playing many types of hands wierdly etc.

This is a RR's pot, which means cbetting is cheap and quickly can show a profit. Keep it simple .. holla!

[Profish2285]

Not for nothing, when people make weak looking bets into me its usually a scared hand. I have had decent success floating these bets and stealing on the turn.

[Gelford]

Matrix, nice posting in this thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif


I'm off to bed, take care all

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Not for nothing, when people make weak looking bets into me its usually a scared hand. I have had decent success floating these bets and stealing on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


You have noticed this is a RR's pot, no ?

[Profish2285]

I am not saying 1/2 pot is wrong, because thats usually what I do too. But against a typical uNL player I think a bet like this is usually a scared hand, especially a player who has taggish stats. But I am still learning so this could be way off I guess and I am just running hot.

[AFennewald]

bet fold the flop. It is hard to get any value so I'd just turn my hand into abluff.

[futuredoc85]

grunch, but id bet/fold flop and fire again if he flatcalls since he will call/fold with QQ/KK a lot and usually raise any hand he wants to stack with on the flop

[Profish2285]

I would need some crazy read to double barrel here.

I would 3bet a little more, about 7$ from the blinds. Flop I bet/fold. It`s very unlikely that he will call with anything less than an ace.

[takingcontrol]

I like a 1/2 pot bet on the flop here. makes bluffs cheaper and when we have a hand we'll still get it in by the river.
i'm giving up on the turn against all but the worst players if called.
if turn goes check check I'll probably block for 1/3 of pot on the river, providing it blanked totally as we may get looked up by lower PP's here. unless I thought opponent was capable of bluff-raising, in which case i'd probably just c/f hoping to get to the river.

[whyzze]

i will check this flop with a flush draw all the time. worse that happens is a get a free card. Sometimes he takes a stab and then I shove, and if calls I have outs, then he tilts.

Flatcalling preflop against this villain is a huge mistake, we are so ahead of his range here. My stats lately are a little looser than villain, and you should see the crap I raise from CO (22+,Kxs,Qxs,offsuited connectors, any ace, any suited cards that is somehow connected). I think not raising is very bad. Btw, unless you have been 3betting villain fairly light, him calling with AQ is pretty bad.

[LegendLength]

I like a check on the flop. Bet / fold is really turning the JJ into a bluff (i.e. you may as well have 3bet with T5o and then bet / folded the flop).

[yegon]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a check on the flop. Bet / fold is really turning the JJ into a bluff (i.e. you may as well have 3bet with T5o and then bet / folded the flop).

[/ QUOTE ]

if our 3bet pf gets called and an A hits I'd assume we are beat (without reads that villain calls 3bets light). So it's only a question of:

are we going to give up and c/f? Or are we taking a stab and try to make QQ,KK fold.

Sure we are bluffing with JJ but there is no other way to win the pot - we can not act like in WA/WB and call down to SD. If we can assume that villain is able to fold KK, QQ (which he should be) then we should cbet. If we have a read he is loose, floats in big pots, doesn't give up pairs with overcards on the flop then c/f would be best.

[Profish2285]

To go back to the 3 betting JJ question. If villain folds most of the range we are ahead of when we 3 bet, then why would we do it? I understand that it narrows his range down so its easier to play against him, but assuming we are at least decent post flop, isnt flat calling a more profitable play? That is unless the villain calls 3 bets light, then its obviously much more profitable to keep 3 betting him.

[yegon]

- we are OOP
- there are 3 overcards that will make our life hard if any of them flops
- the pot is big enough to try to win it preflop

you can be a monster postflop player but what would you do with this hand if you just called pf? c/f on the flop? Seems like wasting a good hand to me.

[Profish2285]

You are correct, c/f would feel like wasting a big hand. But take into account when the Q/K/A, doesnt hit and villain feels his top pair is good, or decides to keep bluffing into you. Both of these situations would more than likely be with hands that villain would never have played in the first place btw. That doesnt make up for the times we have to throw away a big hand? Oh and I wouldnt flat call here ever, because we are oop, the hand just becomes impossibly difficult I think. But if we were OTB, then is this really a bad move?

[yegon]

[ QUOTE ]
You are correct, c/f would feel like wasting a big hand. But take into account when the Q/K/A, doesnt hit and villain feels his top pair is good, or decides to keep bluffing into you. Both of these situations would more than likely be with hands that villain would never have played in the first place btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about when the Q/K/A doesn't flop and he has QQ,KK,AA and gets 2+ streets of value from us? We are never comfortable with this OOP.



[ QUOTE ]
Oh and I wouldnt flat call here ever, because we are oop, the hand just becomes impossibly difficult I think. But if we were OTB, then is this really a bad move?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't think of an example but I have no problem with flat calling IP with JJ.

[Unknown Soldier]

this is a pretty easy c/f. Let's think about villain's range here. After the pf call it's going to be pretty damn tight unless you have been 3b him alot. I'd say something like TT+/AQ+ maybe 99/AJ sometimes. That board hit his range hard. The only hand that a bet is good against in that range is QQ (KK too, but he prob 4b).

[Gelford]

Vs some that plays like that, it is a c/f ... but there are a lot of villians that like to mess around with position when they hold SCs

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
- we are OOP
- there are 3 overcards that will make our life hard if any of them flops
- the pot is big enough to try to win it preflop


[/ QUOTE ]

JJ is a made hand with SD value - we want to get it to SD if we can.

If you are just raising to try and win the hand preflop then what cards you happen to have don't matter in the slightest and you are effectively turning your hand into 72o.

Turning JJ into 72o is wastng a good hand cos JJ can flop a set and will sometimes make a solid Overpair - I *want* to see a flop with JJ I *don't want* to build a big pot OOP with a marginal hand like JJ.

I don't always flat here I do 3bet JJ here and there but when I do I realise that I am sacrficing a little short term equity for shania.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Vs some that plays like that, it is a c/f ... but there are a lot of villians that like to mess around with position when they hold SCs

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very villain dependent obviously, but I really don't think you see too much messing about in 3b pots lower then 200nl/400nl. c/f is definitely the way to go against a random tag.

[ QUOTE ]
- we are OOP
- there are 3 overcards that will make our life hard if any of them flops
- the pot is big enough to try to win it preflop

you can be a monster postflop player but what would you do with this hand if you just called pf? c/f on the flop? Seems like wasting a good hand to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

yegon pretty much said it here. Also we bet JJ for value

JJ is dificult to play oop, so we don`t mind taking it down right away with a 3bet, especialy considering that an overcard will flop about 57% of the time, putting us in a tought spot, since we can be bluffed out of the pot.

[Unknown Soldier]

not 3b JJ is fine, it all depends on his calling range. If JJ is ahead of that, then 3b away, if it isn't then I'd call.


Making the hand easier is not our goal here.

[ QUOTE ]
not 3b JJ is fine, it all depends on his calling range. If JJ is ahead of that, then 3b away, if it isn't then I'd call.


Making the hand easier is not our goal here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unknown Soldier, what do you put villains CO range on ?

[corsakh]

First thing is a read. Metagame or not, the only thing to drive my decision here will be if he is calling with PP for set value and other garbage here.

In other words I am much more inclined to cbet a CO here, since there is a much bigger chance he is a tool and does not have a strong hand.

UTG, I am c/f a good tag.

PS Matrix: I dont see 3betting JJ as sacrificing anything. Its a protection move against overcards, like one with TT and 99. We are fairly confident that our hand is the best but more often than not we are going to a see a bad flop and being OOP does not help our case. The hand is very vulnerable from the blinds.

[dmoney]

Preflop: I think raising to 6.50 is a bit better here because you are oop. But 6is the low end of fine for a raise.

Flop: I would occasionally (10-15%) check A set of aces, or AT. I probably bet set of 3s or Ts as well as my Big aces. I would also probably check a weak ace but i'd rarely get here with a weak ace.

I like the bet 9-11$ depending on how often he calls C-Bets and basically give up if called. There is so few hands you are beating at the moment. QQ-KK will call you on these flops occasionally so even if you think he is weak (he might still be ahead) Betting won't get him to fold any hand by the turn once he calls flop.

[genius55]

raise more preflop, since JJ is hard to play on alot of flops you might as well make a more serious bet there to at least $7.

postflop is a zoo. you can't really check call because you are giving free cards to random hands

you can't really check fold because his range is wide.

basically u have to go like 2/3 and see how he reacts?

does that sound about right?

[carnivalhobo]

Uh preflop is mandatory IMO.

On the flop i think bet/fold is best without better reads on this guy, once we know more about his 3betcalling range we can make different plays here. Yes it turns our hand into a bluff, but we can rep AK and fold out QQ/KK usually, and it prevents us from being bluffed in general.


About this cbet amount business:

Matrix: Betting more than 1/2 pot is most certainly not a leak. Jamming the pot button every time is probably a leak, but typically with 100bb stacks a slightly larger than 1/2 pot bet is better. WHY?

V opens to 3.5bb, Hero makes it 12bb.

V calls, flop XXX (Pot is 25bb) Hero bets? if we bet 12.5bb here you end up with 75bb left and the pot is 50bb on the turn (minus rake). If we bet 19bb here we have 69bb left and the pot is 60bb on the turn. This makes the turn shove a lot closer to pot which IME is better for a variety of reasons. I think at uNL when you are 3betting a tight range and you will often have the best hand on the flop, the line that lets you stack people easiest post flop is better in general. If you were 3betting wider, and wanted more room to do fun stuff postflop, then sure, maybe small 3bets and small cbets would be better. Or you can flat pre and play even more games /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[DaycareInferno]

i use a pretty simple rule when it comes to these situations where you have some showdown value, but no great shakes. do i want to call 2 bets with my hand? if i don't want to call 2 bets, then i'm leading out. if i want to call 2 bets, then i'm sticking to it. c/c followed by c/f will cost you a lot of money, so normally with these kind of hands, you should be leading out when you're oop. same thing when you're in position, but you should check behind more often in position, because you'll face two bets from weaker hands trying to push you off KK-JJ more often, and you can't face a third bet.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not 3b JJ is fine, it all depends on his calling range. If JJ is ahead of that, then 3b away, if it isn't then I'd call.


Making the hand easier is not our goal here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unknown Soldier, what do you put villains CO range on ?

[/ QUOTE ]

no history? weighted towards TT-QQ/AQ+. You are ahead of that range, so I would 3b JJ. That's my default cut-off hand (calling TT). If he raised utg, i'd flat because you look alot stronger, if you 3b his range should be tighter.

[yegon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
- we are OOP
- there are 3 overcards that will make our life hard if any of them flops
- the pot is big enough to try to win it preflop


[/ QUOTE ]

JJ is a made hand with SD value - we want to get it to SD if we can.

If you are just raising to try and win the hand preflop then what cards you happen to have don't matter in the slightest and you are effectively turning your hand into 72o.

Turning JJ into 72o is wastng a good hand cos JJ can flop a set and will sometimes make a solid Overpair - I *want* to see a flop with JJ I *don't want* to build a big pot OOP with a marginal hand like JJ.

I don't always flat here I do 3bet JJ here and there but when I do I realise that I am sacrficing a little short term equity for shania.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's possible to say that calling is better than 3betting in this situation. Both have merit and the differences are not easily quantifiable.

If you call you give up value against a lot of worse hands from his range that simply take the pot away if the flop is unfavorable for you even though they might have missed.

If you 3bet you loose value from the worse hands that would bet on flops favorable for you even though they are behind.

If you can combine all this you could come up with a decision if it's better to call or 3bet but I don't think it can be done, there are too many variables.

Everyone offers their view on what is better based on their perception. But until we have mathematical proof we do not really know which one is better. I'd guess the EV difference is not that big if we have so many people in both camps. I also think that it's much more important what you do post flop rather than pre - that is the reason why this topic started.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh preflop is mandatory IMO.

On the flop i think bet/fold is best without better reads on this guy, once we know more about his 3betcalling range we can make different plays here. Yes it turns our hand into a bluff, but we can rep AK and fold out QQ/KK usually, and it prevents us from being bluffed in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a fan of prelop 3betting at microstakes with hands like JJ mostly becuse villains call way too much with crap hands and I think that if we keep the pot manageable we can get to SD with our JJ and win a lot of pots with it. Vs stuff like AT/KT that pairs the Ten for TPGK. If we build a big pot it makes it very easy for villain to put us under more pressure with our unimproved MP as there are less chips left to bet - and I think often the hands we are ahead of fold in large pots so if we do take it to the felt for a stack then more often than not we lose the SD unimproved.

I'd *much* prefer to 3bet a suited 1 gapper than a middling pair cos most of the time after the flop my suited connector is air whereas with JJ/TT sometimes I won't improve but will still have the best hand get to SD and drag a small/medium pot.

Obv if I think villain calls a 3bet preflop with a hand I am ahead of I 3bet almost all the time.

As games get more aggro as you move up then I think 3betting preflop is the standard line as CO's open range gets a little wider and his 3bet calling range gets lots wider - I don't think at a micro table that a meowchow TAG calls our 3bet with many hands we are ahead of and it's a little better to flat pre. Also even tho we are OOP villains put nothing like as much pressure on an OOP opponent as they should at micro tables, IME a bunch of bad mcTAGs tend to CB flop, CB turn and check behind the river when they have marginal hands - I think that when you combine that fact (we will often get to SD without having to get our whole stack in ) with the looser postflop play thats prevalent at microtables (i.e. villains will felt TPGK on a ten high flop and similar hands) then that amount of EV that JJ has is what we are sacrificing when we 3bet preflop with it and mostly turn our hand into a bluff.

This is why I believe that at micro tables "standard" play is to flat call here preflop which I do ~70% of the time and 3bet the other 30%.

[ QUOTE ]

About this cbet amount business:

Matrix: Betting more than 1/2 pot is most certainly not a leak. Jamming the pot button every time is probably a leak, but typically with 100bb stacks a slightly larger than 1/2 pot bet is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take your point - I think I was overstating my case a little - tho I do think that always betting 3/4 pot in a reraised pot is a bit of a leak with 100BB stacks. In the OP hand I advocated $7 which is a little over halfpot - typically at a 50NL table I halve the potsize and then round up to the nearest dollar, I think I will nudge my betsizing here up a little in the future.

[anthb7210p]

You always have to lead this flop if your going to 3bet. If you check it villan will steal with ATC - its so expoitable. If you get raised or turn blanks only then can u fold / checkfold. This you much less readable and you will def get paid off on your AA AK's more often. Also, either calling preflop or 3betting are both OK.

[Check_The_Nuts]

I only glanced over what gelford said but I basically agree with him.

I don't like check/calling the flop. I would either just bet or check/fold.

[orange]

I typically bet. As i would many hands here.

[gregorio]

3bet JJ PF not manditory. I was just watching a Stox video where he says he coldcalls jacks in position or out of position because it plays good post flop and you want to play medium sized pots with it and you don't want the fold equity, you want some value. He basically says what Matrix says.

[matrix]

so I am playing these days on a new windows box and I don't have any of my old db's to hand - but during last nights session this hand came up and I played it like this.

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

MP: $53.02
CO: $69.28
BTN: $77.97
Hero (SB): $43.50
BB: $24.43
UTG: $101.20

Pre-Flop: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $1.50</font>, CO calls $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7</font>, 2 folds, CO calls $5.50, BTN folds

Flop: ($17.50) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $9</font>, CO folds

Results: $17.50 Pot

so far CO here is the table sucker and I have been tangling with him a little this is the first hand I've 3bet at this table. (I've been sitting for ~3 orbits or so and yes I tried to reload preflop but was too late) The rest of the players at the table are playing pretty nitty and leaching CO dry slowly but surely.

I 3bet my JJ here from the small blind cos I am very confident CO will call at least with a hand I am ahead of and I wants value. I'm also confident that everyone else has a OK but not great hand and won't want to play a big pot - my raise here is a kind of squeeze and I am planning to CB flop if CO calls and take it away from him usually or get mad value cos he's the kind of player that will call if he hits any kind of pair.

Obv here I hit a golden flop but note my flop CB size.(if I'd had 100bb I'd have bet $10 here) Also my preflop 3bet is a little smaller than pot - but it's large enough to get the job done (fold everyone except CO) and it's small enough so that I can bet/fold a nasty flop if he pushes OTT of my raise (I don't think even this guy is going to bluff push many flops where I'm ahead) and if I like the flop and he calls/raises my flop bet we are playing for stacks.

I think if I flat call here preflop I am playing for set value alone - as this hand turned out I probably would have got paid off if I flat call preflop as one of the 4 players is likely to have an Ace, but most often I miss my set so I decided that 3betting preflop here was better.

I amjust trying to illustrate here that altho I am in the "flatcalling JJ in the SB is standard camp" that I don't always flat preflop - when I have a reason to I deviate from my standard line. You should too.

We can't ever ALWAYS take a certain line in a situation. I think that in some of my posts in this thread what I am trying to say is that the leaks the SPEW that some people have is where they autopilot play their standard lines without thinking. They always CB 2/3 - 3/4 pot on flops without thinking about what will happen later on in the hand - or later on in other hands vs the same players.

Perhaps my play in this hand isn't optimal - but I thought out a plan of attack - I tried to think about what I wanted to manipulate the villains into doing, and then I made what I thought was the best play. I am happy with my play here.

I am a little rusty at this poker stuff having barely played for 3 months (life beats) - and this thread has really made me think so I am enjoying the discussion.

[munkey]

1st I agree JJ OOP in 3bet pot is one hardest situations -AQ too IMHO -but I flat AQ out SB more often as it dominates LP ranges alot.

I 3bet preflop almost always - as corsakh says its protection vs overcards - I flat it out SB if villan will float me more often -as 1 overcard flops can become expensive if vilian will call with QJo and stack off on qxx flop -basically if I have low FE (preflop or on flop) and want to get to showdown with a small pot.

I agree with carniehobo about fcbet size - it though this was standard -se AJ's foundation post.

I also don't agree with 1/2 potting flop in 3bet pot -vs fish they will often float any piece or draw - I bet 2/3 pot and then can PSB shove turn or bet decent amt then put remainder in on river.

[munkey]

In that hand Matrix JJJ in 3bet pot - I have a noobish question I don't actually know the correct answer too.

What's the best 3bet size out SB/BB given x limpers?
Is there a standard like 4xbb+ 1limper?

FWIW I tend to do what you did but make it tad more.

I'm just asking because JJ multiway OOP sucks so either we think a decent 3bet will get it HU and a cbet has a decent chance of sucess but if some of those callers call our 3bet then isn't it better to flat out the SB then and play a small pot?

[bozzer]

grunch...

my typical line would be to cbet pretty big and c/f /images/graemlins/heart.gif turns or rivers.

against a meh villain who doesn't call pf with dodgy aces or float much i'll c/f most turns. if he's likely to call weak pf or f and fold to a two barrel i might shove a turn (esp if i pick up a gutshot), but mostly not.

if he's likely to do other weird stuff then some interesting c/r lines come into play, but i think this is like a 85% cbet-c/f spot for me. leak?

edit: ps, i don't think a c-c is much cop at all at any point on this board.

[NL Newbie]

If $9 is bad, but $7 is good, what reasoning is there to say $4 is bad? What about $1?

I want your views, i have already got my own opinion of the bet size or the check line to take in this spot of course.

Just stimulating some more discussion before i say my line in this hand

[Supwithbates]

Here is something that I've found to be true at 50nL:

Opponents like to float 3bet pots. At 50nl, everyone starts 3betting a semiwide range, but has no clue how to play in a 3bet pot that they don't connect with. They think they should cbet 100% like they do in regular pots without realizing how exploitable that is, because they almost always fold to a raise. That makes floating preflop with hands like SC EXTREMELY profitable against PFR with wide 3b ranges. All you have to do is shove over their cbet with a FD, or mid pair, or whatever, and they fold often enough+you have enough equity to make it so ridiculously profitable.

I pretty much always check this spot. Not to c/r, but to c/c or c/f.

Think of it this way: What does a bet accomplish on this flop against a decent thinkign TAG? Do we think he will fold an ace or a bigger pair? Do we think he will smoothcall with a worse pair? He almost always folds 99 and worse here, and if he is calling preflop with a hand like T9s then he is either folding or (more likely) shoving this flop, against which we have to fold.

The ONLY reason to bet this flop is if we bet with the intention of calling his shove. Betting is risking more money in a growing pot that opponent has already decided he has an interest in taking down.

A line I find to be profitable is to simply ALWAYS check 3bet flops when an ace hits vs. aggressive thinking opponents (barring certain wet flop situations). A c/c after a 3b PF with AK never looks like an ace, so we induce opponent to bluff. I usually cbet overpairs, but with the intention of calling if he shoves with the understanding that an aggressive opponent has a wide range preflop and therefore necessarily has a wide range postflop.

Also, when opponents see us checking AK on ace-high flops in 3b pots, they become more wary of trying to steal from us when we have KK-JJ, because it keeps our range wide.

[ama0330]

Very good post bates.

[genius55]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is something that I've found to be true at 50nL:

Opponents like to float 3bet pots. At 50nl, everyone starts 3betting a semiwide range, but has no clue how to play in a 3bet pot that they don't connect with. They think they should cbet 100% like they do in regular pots without realizing how exploitable that is, because they almost always fold to a raise. That makes floating preflop with hands like SC EXTREMELY profitable against PFR with wide 3b ranges. All you have to do is shove over their cbet with a FD, or mid pair, or whatever, and they fold often enough+you have enough equity to make it so ridiculously profitable.

I pretty much always check this spot. Not to c/r, but to c/c or c/f.

Think of it this way: What does a bet accomplish on this flop against a decent thinkign TAG? Do we think he will fold an ace or a bigger pair? Do we think he will smoothcall with a worse pair? He almost always folds 99 and worse here, and if he is calling preflop with a hand like T9s then he is either folding or (more likely) shoving this flop, against which we have to fold.

The ONLY reason to bet this flop is if we bet with the intention of calling his shove. Betting is risking more money in a growing pot that opponent has already decided he has an interest in taking down.

A line I find to be profitable is to simply ALWAYS check 3bet flops when an ace hits vs. aggressive thinking opponents (barring certain wet flop situations). A c/c after a 3b PF with AK never looks like an ace, so we induce opponent to bluff. I usually cbet overpairs, but with the intention of calling if he shoves with the understanding that an aggressive opponent has a wide range preflop and therefore necessarily has a wide range postflop.

Also, when opponents see us checking AK on ace-high flops in 3b pots, they become more wary of trying to steal from us when we have KK-JJ, because it keeps our range wide.

[/ QUOTE ]


I see where your coming from and I disagree completely.

checking this flop is horrible as i have said before because

A) Given LP's wide range if he checks behind he may hit a 2-8 outer of whatever, which is not something u can allow.

B) If he raises he has an ace like 90% of the time and u can fold knowing your beat.

C) if he calls flop bet you can assign a range and play turn based on your reads


checking flop is scared poker and it is very very bad. I don't know where you get the idea that you don't want to bet because 99 will probably fold. ok I'm alright with 99 folding. Don't u think 99 will fold on later street anyway.

seriously wtf?

[yegon]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is something that I've found to be true at 50nL:

Opponents like to float 3bet pots. At 50nl, everyone starts 3betting a semiwide range, but has no clue how to play in a 3bet pot that they don't connect with. They think they should cbet 100% like they do in regular pots without realizing how exploitable that is, because they almost always fold to a raise. That makes floating preflop with hands like SC EXTREMELY profitable against PFR with wide 3b ranges. All you have to do is shove over their cbet with a FD, or mid pair, or whatever, and they fold often enough+you have enough equity to make it so ridiculously profitable.

I pretty much always check this spot. Not to c/r, but to c/c or c/f.

Think of it this way: What does a bet accomplish on this flop against a decent thinkign TAG? Do we think he will fold an ace or a bigger pair? Do we think he will smoothcall with a worse pair? He almost always folds 99 and worse here, and if he is calling preflop with a hand like T9s then he is either folding or (more likely) shoving this flop, against which we have to fold.

The ONLY reason to bet this flop is if we bet with the intention of calling his shove. Betting is risking more money in a growing pot that opponent has already decided he has an interest in taking down.

A line I find to be profitable is to simply ALWAYS check 3bet flops when an ace hits vs. aggressive thinking opponents (barring certain wet flop situations). A c/c after a 3b PF with AK never looks like an ace, so we induce opponent to bluff. I usually cbet overpairs, but with the intention of calling if he shoves with the understanding that an aggressive opponent has a wide range preflop and therefore necessarily has a wide range postflop.

Also, when opponents see us checking AK on ace-high flops in 3b pots, they become more wary of trying to steal from us when we have KK-JJ, because it keeps our range wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

great food for thought

if I was villain I would fold KK,QQ to a 2/3 of pot cbet - leak?

so what would you do here c/f? And what would you do with AK here c/c or c/r?

If you allways c/f big pairs and only continue with AK or better after he bets your range is very narrow on the turn in 3bet pots. He has to pay 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot to find out what you have which is quite cheap. He also has the added benefit that you will fold more often than he needs for his bet to be profitable. This all changes if you are willing to c/c with JJ-KK on this flop but I don't see how we could call being OOP. What would we do on the turn?

[C4LL4W4Y]

[ QUOTE ]
checking this flop is horrible as i have said before because

A) Given LP's wide range if he checks behind he may hit a 2-8 outer of whatever, which is not something u can allow.

[/ QUOTE ]

if checking this flop allows our villain (with 2-8 outs on the flop) to try and extract value from our seemingly weak range, then it is definitely something you CAN allow.

[ QUOTE ]
B) If he raises he has an ace like 90% of the time and u can fold knowing your beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

where do you get this figure? an observant opponent will realize that you're betting your entire pf3b range on this flop and profitably raise with a much wider range than an A.

[ QUOTE ]
C) if he calls flop bet you can assign a range and play turn based on your reads


checking flop is scared poker and it is very very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're never checking this flop (and vice versa, never betting), you're going to be extremely exploitable. but hey, this is 50nl, right? (sarcasm of course)

[Check_The_Nuts]

I never really liked 3bet pot posts. I think its just too hard to summarize what someone should do in any given situation because TAGs play reraised pots so radically different. Even I play 3bet pots much differently dependant on the day, my mood, and how frequent or infrequent I've been 3betting.

Basically what I'm saying is gameflow really matters in 3bet pots. I've bet flop shoved turn with JJ before for value, but other times I've taken a line of check/fold flop and bet turn.

With all that said, I really think bates made a nice summarization of the typical situations found at 50NL.

[DaycareInferno]

the problem with checking the flop is that in a 3bet pot oop with normal starting stack sizes, marginal showdown value isn't worth much, because you have to make it through 3 rounds in an already inflated pot. calling 1 bet and folding to a second sucks pretty bad, and you're gonna face a second bet a lot vs. decent opponents. Ax/KK would be a lot better hands to do this with. you can't always think in terms of value, because sometimes its just too unlikely that you get to show your hand down passively. in order to really worry about value when you're 3 streets from showing down, its usually pretty advisable to have either a hand that fits into that zone where you can call two bets, or an opponent that makes that zone wide enough for the hand that you do have. its not a crime to not 3bet hands like JJ and AQ either. 3betting is generally highly profitable with atc, but you can only do it so much, so if there are hands that give you problems in 3bet pots, maybe switch in some hands that are easier to play for your 3betting. ranking hands against ranges preflop is pretty overrated. its much more important to be able to play your hands well.

[genius55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
checking this flop is horrible as i have said before because

A) Given LP's wide range if he checks behind he may hit a 2-8 outer of whatever, which is not something u can allow.

[/ QUOTE ]

if checking this flop allows our villain (with 2-8 outs on the flop) to try and extract value from our seemingly weak range, then it is definitely something you CAN allow.

[ QUOTE ]
B) If he raises he has an ace like 90% of the time and u can fold knowing your beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

where do you get this figure? an observant opponent will realize that you're betting your entire pf3b range on this flop and profitably raise with a much wider range than an A.

[ QUOTE ]
C) if he calls flop bet you can assign a range and play turn based on your reads


checking flop is scared poker and it is very very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're never checking this flop (and vice versa, never betting), you're going to be extremely exploitable. but hey, this is 50nl, right? (sarcasm of course)

[/ QUOTE ]


i agree u r exploitable if u NEVER check this flop I'm saying your standard line should be to bet because of the above reasons, and you should vary your play vs. an observed
opponent. but hey like u said this is NL50. how many observant opponents are there&gt;?

[bozzer]

checking flop given 3bet pre ships a heck of a lot of RIO to your opponent basically. betting is valuable for bluff+information+protection+very skinny value.

(and is +++ meta)

not 3betting ships a heck of a lot of RIO.

edit to clarify per ama.

[ama0330]

I think that the flop play and preflop play are so intertwined that to discuss just the flop action is short sighted. I think that if you want to make an argument about checking flop or betting flop you should make reference to your preflop play - ie. "flatting preflop and checking flop is X" as opposed to "checking flop is X".

[C4LL4W4Y]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree u r exploitable if u NEVER check this flop I'm saying your standard line should be to bet because of the above reasons, and you should vary your play vs. an observed
opponent. but hey like u said this is NL50. how many observant opponents are there&gt;?

[/ QUOTE ]

our villain is 19/16/3, a classic uNL tag. chances are he's paying attention.

[wslee00]

ok - so semi-grunching - only read the first 40 posts

seems that everyone is looking at this hand in a vaccuum, which I think is wrong. If you are not 3-betting light to possible blind steals, then I don't think a 3-bet w/ JJ makes sense since this will look strong to villain and his calling range would be very tight. I think whether to 3-bet or not in this spot depends on how long you've been at the table and how villain perceives you. From someone that's a 19/16, I would think he would steal from the blinds quite often, so I'm just calling here pf as my default play as my hand has a lot of showdown value and is killing his range.

[DaycareInferno]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the flop play and preflop play are so intertwined that to discuss just the flop action is short sighted. I think that if you want to make an argument about checking flop or betting flop you should make reference to your preflop play - ie. "flatting preflop and checking flop is X" as opposed to "checking flop is X".

[/ QUOTE ]

there are so many factors pf, but i would put it this way:

the ideal situation for cold calling a raise with a JJ would be against a very tight opponent that is very agressive post flop. we have very high implied odds against his range and playstyle, and a 3bet is much less profitable than normal, because he won't be dumping nearly as high a % of his range to that raise as a looser opponent.

the ideal situation for 3betting would be against a loose (or at least loose where he sits) opponent that is more likely to fold to our 3bet, less likely to have a hand that pays out, and more likely to have a speculative hand himself that performs much better with deep stacks behind on the flop.

most situations are a lot more gray than that, so you just use your best judgment.

if we do 3bet, leading out on this flop is far and away the best option in my opinion. while we won't often be called by worse hands, the fact of the matter is that we can still be pretty confident that it is a profitable bet on bluffing value alone. comparitavely, checking and calling in a sitaution that requires our opponent to only bet once, and with a worse hand, usually isn't profitable at all. its a long ways from the flop to the river, and calling 1 bet and dumping is probably one of the single biggest ways to bleed chips in nlhe.

if we elect to just call the bet pf and go to the flop, things change a little, because our opponents range is now much wider than before. now, a lot of times JJ will be a hand that can call 2 or more bets vs. a large percentage of opponents, and is also more likely to get to showdown cheaply, since there is more money behind, and worse risk vs. reward for potential bluffers. obviously we will also be taking down the pot less often without showdown ourselves, since we do not have the betting lead.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]


there are so many factors pf, but i would put it this way:
[...]

[/ QUOTE ]

excellent post.

[Supwithbates]

[ QUOTE ]

if we do 3bet, leading out on this flop is far and away the best option in my opinion. while we won't often be called by worse hands, the fact of the matter is that we can still be pretty confident that it is a profitable bet on bluffing value alone.

[/ QUOTE ]
What worse hand is SMOOTHCALLING our flop bet?
If you can't answer that question, then your bluff has no value.
If you're folding to a shove then your play is hyperexploitable and it will be exploited at 50nl

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

if we do 3bet, leading out on this flop is far and away the best option in my opinion. while we won't often be called by worse hands, the fact of the matter is that we can still be pretty confident that it is a profitable bet on bluffing value alone.

[/ QUOTE ]
What worse hand is SMOOTHCALLING our flop bet?
If you can't answer that question, then your bluff has no value.
If you're folding to a shove then your play is hyperexploitable and it will be exploited at 50nl

[/ QUOTE ]

so if we check at what point are we folding or committing?

[Tito]

Grunch.

I bet $8-10 on flop. If he calls I shut down unless the turn card is a blank (eg. No A,Q,K, or heart) where I will fire another 1/2 pot bet.

I think the problem with JJ versus this particular opponent is that we know we aren't getting paid off too regularly with hands that we beat. I think I prefer calling his raise preflop and then playing poker the rest of the way. Villain is playing less than 20% of his hands and raising even less than that with a high AF. I feel all these things combined justifies cautious play, NOT scared play from us. You still have to make a reasonable attempt to win the pot with a 3-bet preflop and on this board it's just too likely villain has us beat or will have us beat before the end. However, as played you have to protect your hand against draws on the flop and re-evaluate the turn.

[carnivalhobo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uh preflop is mandatory IMO.

On the flop i think bet/fold is best without better reads on this guy, once we know more about his 3betcalling range we can make different plays here. Yes it turns our hand into a bluff, but we can rep AK and fold out QQ/KK usually, and it prevents us from being bluffed in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a fan of prelop 3betting at microstakes with hands like JJ mostly becuse villains call way too much with crap hands and I think that if we keep the pot manageable we can get to SD with our JJ and win a lot of pots with it. Vs stuff like AT/KT that pairs the Ten for TPGK. If we build a big pot it makes it very easy for villain to put us under more pressure with our unimproved MP as there are less chips left to bet - and I think often the hands we are ahead of fold in large pots so if we do take it to the felt for a stack then more often than not we lose the SD unimproved.

I'd *much* prefer to 3bet a suited 1 gapper than a middling pair cos most of the time after the flop my suited connector is air whereas with JJ/TT sometimes I won't improve but will still have the best hand get to SD and drag a small/medium pot.

Obv if I think villain calls a 3bet preflop with a hand I am ahead of I 3bet almost all the time.

As games get more aggro as you move up then I think 3betting preflop is the standard line as CO's open range gets a little wider and his 3bet calling range gets lots wider - I don't think at a micro table that a meowchow TAG calls our 3bet with many hands we are ahead of and it's a little better to flat pre. Also even tho we are OOP villains put nothing like as much pressure on an OOP opponent as they should at micro tables, IME a bunch of bad mcTAGs tend to CB flop, CB turn and check behind the river when they have marginal hands - I think that when you combine that fact (we will often get to SD without having to get our whole stack in ) with the looser postflop play thats prevalent at microtables (i.e. villains will felt TPGK on a ten high flop and similar hands) then that amount of EV that JJ has is what we are sacrificing when we 3bet preflop with it and mostly turn our hand into a bluff.

This is why I believe that at micro tables "standard" play is to flat call here preflop which I do ~70% of the time and 3bet the other 30%.


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Polarizing your 3bet range is a solid concept against thinking players, but i would wager that most people at 50nl arent thinking on a high enough level to make 3betting JJ a bluff. [unless they are hugely nitty, in which case bluffing with JJ by 3betting is still likely +EV because they just fold too much]

Do what you are comfortable with, but I actually played 10k hands of 100nl this month as a personal challenge, and I can safely say you are burning money not 3betting it there. So if for no other reason than practice its probably a good thing to work into your game.

[carnivalhobo]

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if we do 3bet, leading out on this flop is far and away the best option in my opinion. while we won't often be called by worse hands, the fact of the matter is that we can still be pretty confident that it is a profitable bet on bluffing value alone.

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What worse hand is SMOOTHCALLING our flop bet?
If you can't answer that question, then your bluff has no value.
If you're folding to a shove then your play is hyperexploitable and it will be exploited at 50nl

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worse hands calling have no bearing on the value of a bluff, the value is from the better hands that fold.

betting when you have the lead on A high flops is pretty far from exploitable as long as your preflop ranges are reasonable.

[carnivalhobo]

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ok - so semi-grunching - only read the first 40 posts

seems that everyone is looking at this hand in a vaccuum, which I think is wrong. If you are not 3-betting light to possible blind steals, then I don't think a 3-bet w/ JJ makes sense since this will look strong to villain and his calling range would be very tight. I think whether to 3-bet or not in this spot depends on how long you've been at the table and how villain perceives you. From someone that's a 19/16, I would think he would steal from the blinds quite often, so I'm just calling here pf as my default play as my hand has a lot of showdown value and is killing his range.

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killing his range is a good reason to 3bet, we want to put more bets in when our range is beating his. thats how we win money.

[Supwithbates]

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if we do 3bet, leading out on this flop is far and away the best option in my opinion. while we won't often be called by worse hands, the fact of the matter is that we can still be pretty confident that it is a profitable bet on bluffing value alone.

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What worse hand is SMOOTHCALLING our flop bet?
If you can't answer that question, then your bluff has no value.
If you're folding to a shove then your play is hyperexploitable and it will be exploited at 50nl

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so if we check at what point are we folding or committing?

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This entirely depends on your ability to read your opponent's range and actions and is impossible to answer with a generality.

For instance, vs. a weak-tight player I will probably lead this flop because he's apt to fold QQ or KK.

Vs. a LAG I'll c/f without a second thought on this flop, but I'll also 3b AJ+ PF so I'm checking an ace here fairly often as well.

Basically reverse implied odds are your enemy on hands like this no matter how you play them, because if you bet you're only getting action from better hands, and if you check you have no idea where you stand with a medium strength made hand with little chance of improving. Knowing how your opponents are apt to react in 3b pots is pretty key.

[wslee00]

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killing his range is a good reason to 3bet, we want to put more bets in when our range is beating his. thats how we win money.

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if we are killing his range when we only have JJ, do you think he will call a 3-bet from us?

[yegon]

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For instance, vs. a weak-tight player I will probably lead this flop because he's apt to fold QQ or KK.


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What will a TAG do with QQ or KK facing our cbet? Call? Is that the correct play for him to do?

[carnivalhobo]

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killing his range is a good reason to 3bet, we want to put more bets in when our range is beating his. thats how we win money.

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if we are killing his range when we only have JJ, do you think he will call a 3-bet from us?

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yes

[Milky]

Does the issue change if we change JJ to 77-TT? Do you 3bet an CO/button openraise from the same kind of player? I typically do. How do you play an A high flop (assuming no set)? I'll typically cbet in all of these situations, but I'm wondering if any of you would play differently with 77-TT vs JJ.

[carnivalhobo]

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Does the issue change if we change JJ to 77-TT? Do you 3bet an CO/button openraise from the same kind of player? I typically do. How do you play an A high flop (assuming no set)? I'll typically cbet in all of these situations, but I'm wondering if any of you would play differently with 77-TT vs JJ.

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the difference between 77 and JJ is JJ is ahead of 88, 99, TT which make up a big part of most of these guys opening/calling ranges.

[Milky]

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the difference between 77 and JJ is JJ is ahead of 88, 99, TT which make up a big part of most of these guys opening/calling ranges.

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I agree, but does that really change much if an A flops though? How do you expect to get any value from those hands?