50nl, turned TP with FD meets minbet

[ShipitFMA]

NO reads at all, your line here?

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

UTG: $73.97
MP: $49.14
CO: $41.79
BTN: $17.55
Hero (SB): $47.75
BB: $49.03

Pre-Flop: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (SB)
4 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $2.50</font>, BB calls $2.50

Turn: ($9) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $12</font>, Hero?????

[catoandtonic]

Call and showdown cheaply if you don't improve. Btw, is this cbet less of a percentage than your standard?

[ShipitFMA]

yeah, should've been 3, accidently scrolled down one

[wake_up]

I think it's pretty safe to assume that you are beat at this stage and have little FE, but villain is giving you the right odds to "flush-up" so call turn, check/fold river UI FTW?

[ShipitFMA]

can we shove any diamond, jack or queen?

[wake_up]

Good question.

Certianly shove any diamond... a J or a Q are unlikely to improve us unless he's slooooow playing AA/KK though.

[catoandtonic]

[ QUOTE ]
Good question.

Certianly shove any diamond... a J or a Q are unlikely to improve us unless he's slooooow playing AA/KK though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, what he said. Weirdly, a Q is better for us than a J. Do we shove a 7d river and not shove a non-heart Q? They are very close to each other in relative hand strength.

[slush420]

call turn and pray for the flush. I think if you hit a j or q on the river check/call is good

[ShipitFMA]

What hand ranges are you all putting him on?

[wake_up]

[ QUOTE ]
What hand ranges are you all putting him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set/overpair/air... maaaaybe 5h6h, 5d6d, 8d9d, Td9d if he's cheeky.

[catoandtonic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What hand ranges are you all putting him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set/overpair/air... maaaaybe 5d6d, 8d9d, Td9d if he's cheeky.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJ or possibly KJ should be added as well. Really tough to narrow down against an unknown. There is a ton of low possibility hands such as 88-TT, A7 or J7. This could be a 90/30/2.3 who is thrilled to have made a pair or could be a 16/12/2 who is pushing a set hoping you have KK or AA.

Edit: Upon further thinking, I really doubt it is a 16/12/2 pushing a set because it would have been played faster. Also with the turn minraise, it seems more likely we are not dealing with a very good player.

[ICMoney]

My first reaction was to ship this turn.

I've been a fish today and it's 5am.

[orange]

call turn, check most any river. sometimes bet depending on opponent.

[catoandtonic]

[ QUOTE ]
call turn, check most any river. sometimes bet depending on opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Orange,

Certainly we are betting/shoving any diamond. Do you bet/shove the 7d?

[orange]

cato,
why lead a diamond river? think about it this way- any hand CALLING a river shove is BETTING the river himself. or bluffing perhaps. does that make sense? (it took me a while to get this concept). too often do i see players just open shoving the nuts or what not when a bluff is never in their range and they are only doing it with nut hands. sure this will work at 25nl and the like, but when you play against opponents who can hand read better, you miss out on value.

and yeah, i would definitely get it in on 7d.

[wake_up]

If a low diamond falls, AJ etc. would probably call a bet but check behind if given the opportunity, no?

[catoandtonic]

orange,

Good point. I do think that some 2 pair and set combos may check behind afraid of a flush while they would not have been able to fold to a bet. However, I don't doubt that check raising river is best line for a diamond. Whether or not to lead the river was not my interest. I was examining whether or not to be willing to get it all in on a non-heart queen.

This is the reason I specifically ask about the 7d. Relatively, these two hands are very close to the same strength(top2 and flush with paired board). The only difference is that if villain is willing to stack with our top2, then a flush isn't in his range. That makes our hand (top2) weaker relatively, but is kinda counteracted by a chance that villain may be bluffing his missed draw.

I was thinking that failing to stack with a non-heart Q may be fundamentally missing value.

Edit: tried to make my point more clear

[orange]

I actually misread the hand lol. I thought we had backdoor diamonds when in fact we have just the regular FD. I think that shoving the river or just plain betting it can be fine sometimes, I think that villan folds alot though with whatever he has. I think this is generally a c/r on the river if we DID have the backdoor diamonds and we did hit.

As of this point, I would either call or shove, never folding. And see the river to determine the action.

[Bluegrassplayer]

Well I don't think his range of hands is as limited as everyone else does, but I also think you have no fold equity for a shove here. I call this and value bet a river that improves your hand.

[thac]

Grunch,

I like a flat call. Try and get to showdown if the river blanks. It's borderline if you hit two pair but I'd check/call because if we bet and he raises it's gonna put us in a tough spot because he sees the Q and J out and still raises (usually means set). If a diamond hits, I'd just bet close to pot, probably around 26. If he bets really big on the river on a blank I would just fold. No real point in bluff-catching I don't think.