Wouldnt you profit more raising 4x the BB rather than "pot"?

[n4rf]

Since the difference with 4x the BB and "pot" is .5 a bb (pot is 3.5, without any other players), wouldn't you make more money raising to 4x rather than 3.5x (again assuming no limpers)? I gave this a thought and it probably makes more sense to raise to 4. You aren't betting too much with 4x, and your pots will generally be bigger, even if you win it on the flop with a cbet.

Does this make sense? Or am I beating a dead horse?

[Profish2285]

The difference is negligible in my opinion. I just pot it pf in position, and slightly more oop. You will win more in the hands you win, and lose more in the hands you lose.

[n4rf]

I feel it can add up just as much as blind stealing can.

[Profish2285]

Youre assuming you dont lose more though. If I open pot pf at .10/.25. Then there is .85 from me, one caller, and two blinds. That would equal 2.05 minus rake. Assume a standard c-bet there would be 1.5. So sometimes you risk 1.5 and win, and sometimes you lose. Now assume a 4x BB raise pf. The pot would be 2.35 minus rake. Assume a standard bet is what, 1.75? So sometimes you win that again, and sometimes you lose. It all balances out I think.

[doppelganger]

Probably slightly increases your variance, but assuming you know how to cbet profitably I agree that this should slightly improve your winrate since every successful cbet wins a tiny bit bigger pot. I have always made my open raises 4BB as do a large number of other 2p2'ers.

[n4rf]

You can take just as much as a chance at blind stealing. You can attempt to blind steal, and win a BB and a SB, or you could get repopped and lose your 3.5 or 4x BB. I think if you pick your correct spots to fire out, it could be a small profit, especially when you have your made hands.

Example NL10:
you're holding AQ on button, and raise to .4, SB folds and BB calls. Pot is now .85

Flop comes QQK; BB checks, and you pot it making it .85, BB calls.

Anyways, you might be profiting here having a pot that is .85 rather than .75. It could add up much more on later streets.


But I can understand where the profit could be very small, but who knows. I'd be interested to see an example of someone raising 3.5x and 4x over a sample of 1k hands and see if there's any noticeable difference (though there are of course many other factors involved)

[kindergartencop]

if your laggier i would open for 3x or pot, nittier open 4x.

[Bantam222]

I agree with you especially at micro limits...i can see more of an argument for raising less at high stakes or whatever. One reason I find people raising 3.5x is at Full tilt they have the pot button preflop so lazy/multitablers will just use that. When ever i see a HH with that i often notice its from FTP.

I figure if you are making a +ev decision its obviously better to play for more money and make the pot better. That extra 1/2 BB preflop can lead to an extra BB in your cbet and larger bets on the turn and river which add up assuming you are winning player and making +ev decisions. Why do bad players like to limp so much??? because they realize if they play smaller pots they will lose less money.

The only reason I can think of not raising 4BB is if people play tighter vs 4BB vs 3.5BB raises which I doubt happens. I've actually wondered if it would be profitable to raise 5BB or something at micros. I see some people open raising to 8BB or more with their monsters PF, obviously its a easy tell and i have notes on these players but fish still call them light.

[carnivalhobo]

i think 4 is better at 50nl and lower, but cant explain why

[catoandtonic]

The more pots you open, the less your standard raise should be. This is because you will, on average, be taking weaker hands to the flop. On average, hand equity wise, you lose a percentage of every cent that goes in pre-flop. The hope is to make this up post-flop with fold equity or by inducing your opponents to make errors.

If you are tighter, then raising the maximum amount that others will call is the best strategy. This is because, you will be taking the best hands only to the flop and the more money that goes in pre-flop, the better for you, since you will gain a percentage of every cent that goes in pre-flop.

It could be said that you should raise more with weaker holdings to help induce folds. Sometimes, this can be effective while varying your play, but mostly this will end up costing you money. Opponents will notice you doing this consistently, thus lowering your folding equity and leaving you playing large pots with marginal holdings.

[ICMoney]

I heard someone say they pfr 3x in ep and 4x in late pos.

This way he is playing smaller pots oop and larger ones IP.

Any merit to that?

Your hands will be stronger from ep and you will have trash often in LP.

So could the opposite be true as well?

[STARSCREAM.]

I agree with OP entirely and never open for 3.5xbb.

I opt to sacrafice the convenience of the pot button and type out my bet, for the exact reason that was explained before.

.5bb can and will make a difference over thousands of hands.

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard someone say they pfr 3x in ep and 4x in late pos.

This way he is playing smaller pots oop and larger ones IP.

Any merit to that?

Your hands will be stronger from ep and you will have trash often in LP.

So could the opposite be true as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
Phil Gordon says that in Little Green Book. I think it may have some merit but it's just so damn convenient to hit the "pot" button so that's pretty much what I do in any position.

Edit: Oh, and one of my biggest pet peeves in this forum is when I or someone else posts a hand where they've hit the "pot" button to raise and someone starts their hand analysis with "raise more preflop next time." No buddy, I won't.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
if your laggier i would open for 3x or pot, nittier open 4x.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much dead on.

[STARSCREAM.]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard someone say they pfr 3x in ep and 4x in late pos.

This way he is playing smaller pots oop and larger ones IP.

Any merit to that?


[/ QUOTE ]

This really doesn't make much sense to me, yes, it is true that the hands you play from OOP will have smaller pots than the ones you play from IP. But raising 3x the bb will get you a lot more callers than you normally would receive by a lot more suited connector type hands or weak high cards. All that will accomplish is putting you out of position more frequently.

I always raise more from OOP than I do IP, the faster the hand is over when playing from OOP, the better.

[Profish2285]

The reason you raise more oop is to help make up for the natural disadvantage youre in by being oop in the first place. So by raising more with your strong holdings, youre increasing your equity edge, thus decreasing your overall disadvantage by being oop.

[Spurious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if your laggier i would open for 3x or pot, nittier open 4x.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much dead on.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i laggy 27/23 ?

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if your laggier i would open for 3x or pot, nittier open 4x.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much dead on.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i laggy 27/23 ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'd say like 23/19 or more.

[HBomb]

I tend to raise 4x BB all the time in standard 6 max games and if the games get down to 3 handed or HU, I tend to opt to start raising 3x at times instead.

[Antinome]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard someone say they pfr 3x in ep and 4x in late pos.
This way he is playing smaller pots oop and larger ones IP.
Any merit to that?


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly the opposite is true- OOP we are raising for value more often and in position we are raising to steal more often. Steals want to be as small as possible and Value wants to be as big as possible.

Notable exception is in a BvB SB steal, where we are OOP, but we are stealing and there is less to win. Betting 4BB there is a huge leak that way too many otherwise good players have.

[ICMoney]

Yeah, the second half I proposed the opposite.

Any merit to 4x up front and 3 or 3.5 otb?


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I heard someone say they pfr 3x in ep and 4x in late pos.
This way he is playing smaller pots oop and larger ones IP.
Any merit to that?


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly the opposite is true- OOP we are raising for value more often and in position we are raising to steal more often. Steals want to be as small as possible and Value wants to be as big as possible.

Notable exception is in a BvB SB steal, where we are OOP, but we are stealing and there is less to win. Betting 4BB there is a huge leak that way too many otherwise good players have.

[/ QUOTE ]