How will part-time players survive a regulated poker site?

[Spaded]

Unless "professional gambler" is your stated profession, you cannot deduct your losing sessions from your winning sessions, according to tax law. A regulated site in the USA would be required to report all winnings. Regulation would be a large blessing for us, but our compromise would be increased IRS scrutiny.
How can someone whose winning sessions add up to $100k and whose losing sessions add up to $90k be expected to pay any more than 10% on taxes? Please tell me this has been discussed before and everything is going to be OK /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Otherwise there is no hope for poker. At all. None! Thanks.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless "professional gambler" is your stated profession, you cannot deduct your losing sessions from your winning sessions, according to tax law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you can. You can't net them, but you can deduct them*.

*some states differ

[Uglyowl]

You are right that regulated poker and tax law will cause major headaches. For example if someone in the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts (where losses are not deductible) wins $10,000 on winning days, but loses $12,000 on losing days, the Commonwealth still wants it's $500 ($10,000 * 5% tax rate) even though that person lost money playing poker.

[Spaded]

Tax law would have to be rewritten to make it fair or even worth regulating, otherwise regulation might just kill the industry itself.

[JPFisher55]

Another good reason why I am against regulated online poker. Does anyone think that any government will change its tax laws to fairly tax online poker profits?

[Tomcruise]

Guys, get a grip, you will pay taxes on what you net, I've won lots playing live and online. I have an accountant, and all we do in april is figure out, roughly how much did i net?, ok can i roughly prove it?, fine. Then there is like one line on the tax for where i write , gambling winnings = 100k. End of story. chill out.

[TheJokerIsWild]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, get a grip, you will pay taxes on what you net, I've won lots playing live and online. I have an accountant, and all we do in april is figure out, roughly how much did i net?, ok can i roughly prove it?, fine. Then there is like one line on the tax for where i write , gambling winnings = 100k. End of story. chill out.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, it's the end of the story until you get audited.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Tax law would have to be rewritten to make it fair or even worth regulating, otherwise regulation might just kill the industry itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? Losses are deductible at the federal level, as was explained. If your state doesn't do this, I guess you'll have to work for change at that level. Besides, these taxes are owed under the current system....the only thing regulation will change is reporting by sites.

[Poker Clif]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tax law would have to be rewritten to make it fair or even worth regulating, otherwise regulation might just kill the industry itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? Losses are deductible at the federal level, as was explained. If your state doesn't do this, I guess you'll have to work for change at that level. Besides, these taxes are owed under the current system....the only thing regulation will change is reporting by sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, remember, state and local returns ask for your FEDERAL (form 1040) adjusted gross income. So if you can net that at the federal level, you don't really have to worry about state laws, unless they specifically tell you to add it back in on your local return.

[canvasbck]

This is the easiest and fairest tax for poker players. (http://www.fairtax.org)

[superpokermon]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the easiest and fairest tax for poker players. (http://www.fairtax.org)

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like a good idea to me.

[SpaceSquirrel]

From Tomcruise [ QUOTE ]
Guys, get a grip, you will pay taxes on what you net, I've won lots playing live and online. I have an accountant, and all we do in april is figure out, roughly how much did i net?, ok can i roughly prove it?, fine. Then there is like one line on the tax for where i write , gambling winnings = 100k. End of story. chill out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful. I'm pretty sure you can get hit pretty hard if audited. Unless you file as a professional gambler (which is often rejected by the IRS anyway), you are required to report the sum of all winning sessions (unfortunately, it's not 100% clear what constitutes a session) as gambling winnings. This amount is included in your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI). If you choose the itemize your deductions you can then include a deduction for gambling losses up to the amount of your winnings.

If you have 100k in non-gambling earnings, 100k in gambling winnings, and 80k in gambling losses, your AGI is NOT 120k ... it is 200k with an 80k deduction. These may seem like the same thing, but the higher AGI can influence eligibility for a number of other deductions, and could trigger the alternative minimum tax. You also lose the option to take the standard deduction.

Finally, if your records for losing sessions are incomplete or suspect, you may be hit with additional penalties.

Note: I am not a tax or legal expert ... just did some recent research on this issue.
I seem to have lost most of my links, but here are a few:
http://www.onlinepokerfaq.com/guide/us-taxes.html
http://www.taxabletalk.com/gambling/
http://www.casinogaming.com/features/taxlaws.html
http://www.markpilarski.com/column43-2.html

[costanza_g]

Doesnt this all come back to what the definition of a "session" is?

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
Another good reason why I am against regulated online poker. Does anyone think that any government will change its tax laws to fairly tax online poker profits?

[/ QUOTE ]

Vote Ron Paul, he wants to abolish income tax altogether.

[ericicecream]

Why do you think that regulation will CHANGE your tax reporting liability?

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think that regulation will CHANGE your tax reporting liability?

[/ QUOTE ]

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think that regulation will CHANGE your tax reporting liability?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is my opinion that if we get enough pressure, say with serious WTO or other outside help, to force the issue on a poker bill we should address poker taxes at the same time rather than waiting further in the future.

IMO at least addressing the differences between Schedule C tax treatment for poker and other businesses. For example many business including passive ones like investments you can carry over losses for a few years. For tourney specialists this is a major factor.

Having a definition of sessions is of course a major problem.

But I have called the IRS a number of times to ask about what rightly triggers a pro qualification. For example say you are a college student and poker is your only income? Or what precentage of your gross income if from poker qualifies you to file pro.

In other forms of schedule C filing for example small business that can also be considered hobbies there are "triggers" that are established and recogonized by the IRS.

As it is now the IRS seems to be playing games with poker players to the effect that they want to look at each return individually to extract the maximum tax, using different justifications sometimes conflicting in different cases.

If we wait until we have a poker bill before addressing taxes on poker you are going to see polls asking "should poker players be given a tax break!"


D$D

[Tomcruise]

[ QUOTE ]
From Tomcruise [ QUOTE ]
Guys, get a grip, you will pay taxes on what you net, I've won lots playing live and online. I have an accountant, and all we do in april is figure out, roughly how much did i net?, ok can i roughly prove it?, fine. Then there is like one line on the tax for where i write , gambling winnings = 100k. End of story. chill out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful. I'm pretty sure you can get hit pretty hard if audited. Unless you file as a professional gambler (which is often rejected by the IRS anyway), you are required to report the sum of all winning sessions (unfortunately, it's not 100% clear what constitutes a session) as gambling winnings. This amount is included in your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI). If you choose the itemize your deductions you can then include a deduction for gambling losses up to the amount of your winnings.

If you have 100k in non-gambling earnings, 100k in gambling winnings, and 80k in gambling losses, your AGI is NOT 120k ... it is 200k with an 80k deduction. These may seem like the same thing, but the higher AGI can influence eligibility for a number of other deductions, and could trigger the alternative minimum tax. You also lose the option to take the standard deduction.

Finally, if your records for losing sessions are incomplete or suspect, you may be hit with additional penalties.

Note: I am not a tax or legal expert ... just did some recent research on this issue.
I seem to have lost most of my links, but here are a few:
http://www.onlinepokerfaq.com/guide/us-taxes.html
http://www.taxabletalk.com/gambling/
http://www.casinogaming.com/features/taxlaws.html
http://www.markpilarski.com/column43-2.html

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly is a winning and losing session??
Do i submit my poker tracker database and show that i have joined about 5000 different online poker tables in 2007 with 3000 winning sessions and 2000 losing sessions, and then do i report that i played 1000 tournaments and lost 200k playing them, but at the same time won 265k playing them, utterly ridiculous guys, i just give them a rough net and a rough cut of their own.....TRUST me...they don't wanna deal with someone like me for the same reason that they don't want a bunch of bullshitters showing up the IRS trying to write off tons of bogus non existent unprovable gambling losses, they just want nothing to do with it....i just need to make myself accountable for the fact that i have cash assets and other hard assets appearing up out of nowhere.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From Tomcruise [ QUOTE ]
Guys, get a grip, you will pay taxes on what you net, I've won lots playing live and online. I have an accountant, and all we do in april is figure out, roughly how much did i net?, ok can i roughly prove it?, fine. Then there is like one line on the tax for where i write , gambling winnings = 100k. End of story. chill out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful. I'm pretty sure you can get hit pretty hard if audited. Unless you file as a professional gambler (which is often rejected by the IRS anyway), you are required to report the sum of all winning sessions (unfortunately, it's not 100% clear what constitutes a session) as gambling winnings. This amount is included in your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI). If you choose the itemize your deductions you can then include a deduction for gambling losses up to the amount of your winnings.

If you have 100k in non-gambling earnings, 100k in gambling winnings, and 80k in gambling losses, your AGI is NOT 120k ... it is 200k with an 80k deduction. These may seem like the same thing, but the higher AGI can influence eligibility for a number of other deductions, and could trigger the alternative minimum tax. You also lose the option to take the standard deduction.

Finally, if your records for losing sessions are incomplete or suspect, you may be hit with additional penalties.

Note: I am not a tax or legal expert ... just did some recent research on this issue.
I seem to have lost most of my links, but here are a few:
http://www.onlinepokerfaq.com/guide/us-taxes.html
http://www.taxabletalk.com/gambling/
http://www.casinogaming.com/features/taxlaws.html
http://www.markpilarski.com/column43-2.html

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly is a winning and losing session??
Do i submit my poker tracker database and show that i have joined about 5000 different online poker tables in 2007 with 3000 winning sessions and 2000 losing sessions, and then do i report that i played 1000 tournaments and lost 200k playing them, but at the same time won 265k playing them, utterly ridiculous guys, i just give them a rough net and a rough cut of their own.....TRUST me...they don't wanna deal with someone like me for the same reason that they don't want a bunch of bullshitters showing up the IRS trying to write off tons of bogus non existent unprovable gambling losses, they just want nothing to do with it....i just need to make myself accountable for the fact that i have cash assets and other hard assets appearing up out of nowhere.

[/ QUOTE ]


The recent IRS guidance on auditing says they are looking for poker players to make an example of, at the numbers you are taking about you would be one of them.

If you are talking about almost all MTT play then you don't even have a reasonable sesson gray area to play in. Even SnG's are pretty well defined but if you can prove you played or usually play 4 or so a "sesson" then you'd have a chance IMO.

Russ Fox is a CPA that posts here on occasion, and he has some good information on his site. I can did up the link if you can't google him.


D$D

[permafrost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tax law would have to be rewritten to make it fair or even worth regulating, otherwise regulation might just kill the industry itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? Losses are deductible at the federal level, as was explained. If your state doesn't do this, I guess you'll have to work for change at that level. Besides, these taxes are owed under the current system....the only thing regulation will change is reporting by sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Barney's bill:
[ QUOTE ]
Licensee...requirements with respect to any Internet bet or wager...all taxes relating to Internet gambling due to Federal and State governments...are collected at the time of any payment of any proceeds of Internet gambling

[/ QUOTE ]


After they collect taxes, sites will report; collecting and reporting will change.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless "professional gambler" is your stated profession, you cannot deduct your losing sessions from your winning sessions, according to tax law.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm.... wrong, in most places.

(were you trying to say that you can't report the net instead? Or that you can't deduct more losings than you have gained in winning sessions?)

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
Another good reason why I am against regulated online poker. Does anyone think that any government will change its tax laws to fairly tax online poker profits?

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to how they tax any other gambling profits?

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, get a grip, you will pay taxes on what you net, I've won lots playing live and online. I have an accountant, and all we do in april is figure out, roughly how much did i net?, ok can i roughly prove it?, fine. Then there is like one line on the tax for where i write , gambling winnings = 100k. End of story. chill out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your accountant sucks, if he's telling you to net out amounts on your federal tax form.

[Lottery Larry]

Good post, SS

[Lottery Larry]

Good luck with that thought.

It seems as if you're trying to make it HARDER for things to work out, as you'd like them to.

Get the online play legitimized first. Deal with the taxes after that is established.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tax law would have to be rewritten to make it fair or even worth regulating, otherwise regulation might just kill the industry itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? Losses are deductible at the federal level, as was explained. If your state doesn't do this, I guess you'll have to work for change at that level. Besides, these taxes are owed under the current system....the only thing regulation will change is reporting by sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Barney's bill:
[ QUOTE ]
Licensee...requirements with respect to any Internet bet or wager...all taxes relating to Internet gambling due to Federal and State governments...are collected at the time of any payment of any proceeds of Internet gambling

[/ QUOTE ]


After they collect taxes, sites will report; collecting and reporting will change.

[/ QUOTE ]

The time of collection (withholding) doesn't affect the amount owed.

No offense, but why do you post here?

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
Do i submit my poker tracker database and show that i have joined about 5000 different online poker tables in 2007 with 3000 winning sessions and 2000 losing sessions, and then do i report that i played 1000 tournaments and lost 200k playing them, but at the same time won 265k playing them, utterly ridiculous guys

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Seems simple enough to me.

First off, most players don't NEED to submit the data, you need to report the gross wins and the gross losses.

Only if audited, or otherwise requested by the IRS or state tax agencies, will non-pros have to provide individual session records.

But, you keep reporting a net gambling win without any gambling losses and see how that works for you. Just don't ever have a losing year....

[Spaded]

I guess we shall see how this plays out, it seems unamerican to pay more in taxes than you actually netted in a year! I think even religious conservatives and friends of the family would be against that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess we shall see how this plays out, it seems unamerican to pay more in taxes than you actually netted in a year! I think even religious conservatives and friends of the family would be against that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. They tried to get the gambling loss deduction eliminated a few years ago, calling a massive giveaway to the gambling industry. So, if you made $260,000 and lost $230,000 over many sessions, they think you owe taxes on $260,000 income.

However, that is not the case. You keep writing that losses are not deductible, yet we keep explaining that they are. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[sevencard2003]

i have to report every month to SSI what i win at online poker usually from a negative amount to a win of less than $1000 per month, on average about $200-300 in winnings. and they dont deduct my losses, but thank God they go by what i win or lose in a given month (instead of by the day.) and they also accept my logs at face value btw. id hate it if they said i won $400 and took $400 outta my ssi check, if what happened was i really made $300 at the tables july 24th, and then lost back $125 july 25th lost $100 more back july 26th, lost $200 more july 27th, and then won $100 july 28th, for example.

see in the example above, i would actually be reporting an income of $0 (my $25 loss) and it certainly shouldnt be called $400 income which it aint. truth is i write on my calendar everyday my wins and losses from online poker, thats how i know i made approximately $5000 last year.

im sure u think im foolish to report this anyway because a lot of the time my "WINS" never actually turns into real money (i lose it back before i ever withdraw it from the atm.) and i always use paytru or epassporte and withdraw it that way instead of it touching my bank. my mother when i lived at her house, she disapproved of me gambling online, and when she hooked me up with ssi for my emotional problems, she is the one who told ssi about me gambling online all day every day, and made sure everything got reported. thats why when i won $1200 last Nov in that big tourney on stars, it got reported to ssi and my check was $0 for that month. (one nice thing is it dont decrease my SSI payment for more than that 1 month though.)it is rather complicated and i wouldnt mind hearing from other disabled people on ssi their experiences with ssi laws.

[Spaded]

Well that is good news that losses can be deducted for part-time players. I should have a little more faith in our tax system I think /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[repulse]

As far as the tax issue interacts with the prospects of regulation... I earnestly hope that regulation and increased IRS scrutiny would be a catalyst for overhauling this stupid aspect of poker taxation.

(I'm pretty naive about how change like this actually comes about, though. The fantasy world of rational policy seems to coincide less and less with the US... especially the US tax system.)

[Tomcruise]

gl

[Poker Clif]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
. . . First off, most players don't NEED to submit the data, you need to report the gross wins and the gross losses.

Only if audited, or otherwise requested by the IRS or state tax agencies, will non-pros have to provide individual session records.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yes, but. . .

There is nothing prohibiting you from appending additional information to your form, and it may even help to head off an audit.

The IRS has what they call "audit flags". That is, they look to see if something is normal for your situation.

For example, a lot of travel expenses may be considered normal for a salesman, but that same amount might trigger an audit if you are, say, a 3rd grade teacher.

I took the H&R Block course one year (I also have several college accounting courses) and they taught us to add nonrequired information to a return to head off potential audits.

Another thing about the IRS. Agents and auditors may be obnoxious, but they aren't stupid. If we are talking about fairly small amounts, you've made a good faith effort, but there are still a couple items in question, they will just deal with those items, and perhaps ask you to make changes.

This situation is not going to trigger a full audit. The IRS has no interest in undergoing the time and expense of doing an audit to recover an additional $200 in taxes.

Just cover all your bases. Report all of your income, talk to an accountant, add information to your return if you think it will help, and you'll probably be just fine.

[yahboohoo]

I don't think anyone really addressed the underlying issue raised by the OP. It seems he was suggesting that online regulation meant the amounts you were winning and losing could be fully disclosed to the gov't/IRS -- whether that data is daily, hourly, monthly, yearly, whatever... regardless of how you interpret or report your gambling winnings/losses today... and regardless of whether you think that system is fair or not.

The US government's terms for regulation certainly won't allow players to continue enjoying the degree of anonymity they do today. To some degree, the government will know who you are and what you are winning. If they want to define a 'session' as 'your seat at each table' they can. And under THEIR terms for regulations, if they want the data on that session, they can get it.

[Poker Clif]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone really addressed the underlying issue raised by the OP. It seems he was suggesting that online regulation meant the amounts you were winning and losing could be fully disclosed to the gov't/IRS -- whether that data is daily, hourly, monthly, yearly, whatever... regardless of how you interpret or report your gambling winnings/losses today... and regardless of whether you think that system is fair or not.

The US government's terms for regulation certainly won't allow players to continue enjoying the degree of anonymity they do today. To some degree, the government will know who you are and what you are winning. If they want to define a 'session' as 'your seat at each table' they can. And under THEIR terms for regulations, if they want the data on that session, they can get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a tournament player, so I don't really think in terms of sessions. But if you have a well-designed spreadsheet, it's not hard to keep very detailed records, which should satisfy even the IRS.

I have separate spreadsheets for every different type of play: cash, SNG, MTT, etc. (I also have items just for my own beneift, such as aveage place in SNGs).

Every event is recorded. For example my sit-n-go spreadsheet has columns for the start time, end time, entry fee, amount won, and profit. The tournament ends, I go to my spreadsheet, and spend 10 seconds putting in those numbers.

Those numbers also go on a summary spreadsheet. The date goes on the left, and the columns could be, for example, SNG, MTT, cash, and miscellaneous (this is where you could put such things as bonuses). Then it's all there, a line showing what you did every day, with summary totals at the bottom.

I don't think the IRS is all that interested in your day-by-day results. But you could certainly summarize them by week or month, and explain that you have very detailed records going right down to the day and the event if they would like to see them.

My guess is that they wouldn't bother, but even if they did want to see more, and you produced it, in following years, they wouldn't give you any trouble, unless there was a major change (you became at instant millionaire at the WSOP).

As far as written documentation other than your spreadsheet, that isn't hard either. There are records online (such as hand histories) that can prove that you played when you say you did.

If you enter a live tournament, get a receipt for your entry fee, and keep your check stub if you cash. I have never played in a casino, but I suppose you could get someone there to sign sometime saying you were in there playing.

If they don't like how you figured it out, and they want you to make some changes, fine. Again, if you get good advice, make a good-faith effort, and keep good records, the ITS is not going to give you a hard time for a small amount of money. This really doesn't have to be a big deal.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone really addressed the underlying issue raised by the OP. It seems he was suggesting that online regulation meant the amounts you were winning and losing could be fully disclosed to the gov't/IRS -- whether that data is daily, hourly, monthly, yearly, whatever... regardless of how you interpret or report your gambling winnings/losses today... and regardless of whether you think that system is fair or not.

The US government's terms for regulation certainly won't allow players to continue enjoying the degree of anonymity they do today. To some degree, the government will know who you are and what you are winning. If they want to define a 'session' as 'your seat at each table' they can. And under THEIR terms for regulations, if they want the data on that session, they can get it.

[/ QUOTE ]


It will have the effect if the IRS suddenly tried to introduce withholding taxes, on general income, in this day and age.

Given the IRS move to try to withhold MTT winnings, I would expect the issue of withholding of online withdraws of over $600.00 to be the least of our troubles.

Expect about what you get at a B&M under regulation or worse.

This time we will not have the B&M's pressure the gov't to ease off anything infavor of on-line poker.


D$D

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Not really. They tried to get the gambling loss deduction eliminated a few years ago, calling a massive giveaway to the gambling industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Incidentally, one of the reason behind this was the tacit acknowledgment that nobody actually did their taxes the prescribed way.

With poker being the new hot item and thousands of people making/declaring six figures, that has very likely changed now, though.

[permafrost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tax law would have to be rewritten to make it fair or even worth regulating, otherwise regulation might just kill the industry itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? Losses are deductible at the federal level, as was explained. If your state doesn't do this, I guess you'll have to work for change at that level. Besides, these taxes are owed under the current system....the only thing regulation will change is reporting by sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Barney's bill:
[ QUOTE ]
Licensee...requirements with respect to any Internet bet or wager...all taxes relating to Internet gambling due to Federal and State governments...are collected at the time of any payment of any proceeds of Internet gambling

[/ QUOTE ]


After they collect taxes, sites will report; collecting and reporting will change.

[/ QUOTE ]

The time of collection (withholding) doesn't affect the amount owed.

No offense, but why do you post here?

[/ QUOTE ]

OP glossed over or doesn't know about the regulated sites having to withhold “at the time of any payment” on the $100k winnings; and just mentioned reporting. You know that the regulated site would need to collect tax money on the $100k, as well as report, but echoed his misinformation.

It is beside the point, but yes, the withholding has little to do with what you owe. However, keeping your money for several months instead of having it withheld (and likely over withheld if you have losses), has lots to do with your bottom line.

No offense, but this is not TheEnergizer’s forum yet, so why shouldn’t I post here?

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
No offense, but this is not TheEnergizer’s forum yet, so why shouldn’t I post here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can post here all you want, obviously. I was just asking why you do.

[big e]

The simplest and most straight forward approach is for the regulated sites to produced a standardize IRS report form and you would collate this together for all the sites you play at and submit it.

Once poker is regulated the IRS will inform the poker sites on the format it wants for US players, and will no doubt have a master list of all US players and there winnings/losing amount.

[emptyshell]

There are some states where (for *state* income taxes) you have to file a schedule C (pro gambler) to deduct losses. That's true now, so it wouldn't be any worse if a site was regulated.

If your gross winnings are actually significant relative to your other sources of income, you are not likely to face problems filing a schedule C.

I also haven't heard of anyone getting nailed for not paying taxes on gross unW2ed gambling winnings when there is a net loss. Although it is unfortunate that it is technically illegal, sometimes the end result matters more.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not really. They tried to get the gambling loss deduction eliminated a few years ago, calling a massive giveaway to the gambling industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Incidentally, one of the reason behind this was the tacit acknowledgment that nobody actually did their taxes the prescribed way.

With poker being the new hot item and thousands of people making/declaring six figures, that has very likely changed now, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

The part time poker player who makes $100k as a car salesman by day and an extra $5k a year playing Omaha at night probably isn't risking much by netting. Change the $5k to $100k and this guy is just asking for trouble.

[pr0crast]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys, get a grip, you will pay taxes on what you net, I've won lots playing live and online. I have an accountant, and all we do in april is figure out, roughly how much did i net?, ok can i roughly prove it?, fine. Then there is like one line on the tax for where i write , gambling winnings = 100k. End of story. chill out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your accountant sucks, if he's telling you to net out amounts on your federal tax form.

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, mine does the same thing for poker winnings, and he specializes in gambling tax, and he's never lost a single audit.

Bottom line is, do you know what an online "session" is? Neither does the government. Therefore you can twist it to mean a year, a month, a week, whatever. The govt cant pwn you for misinterpreting a word that they refuse to define - they will lose that argument.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
Well that is good news that losses can be deducted for part-time players. I should have a little more faith in our tax system I think /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get too happy. Losses are reported as an itemized deduction. Thus, a part time player who does not already itemize will get overtaxed on his play by the amount of the standard deduction. Most break-even casual players who do not already itemize will stop playing once they see that they're being taxed on phantom winnings.

There's also the specter of inflated AGI impacting things like Roth contributions and the evil Alternative Minimum Tax.

[Skallagrim]

I am a lawyer, not an accountant. Willfully failing to report actual income is a crime. If you net and report your yearly winnings (and are telling the truth) then you have prevented a charge of tax fraud.

If you get audited, the IRS wants back up for your figures. I suspect that if you can back up your figures OK and paid the correct tax, that will be the end of the story.

The whole "sessions" thing is an IRS regulation, not a law. They can use it to try and invalidate (and thus lower) your claim of losses if you dont have "sessions" properly recorded. This only happens if there is an audit. And can only result in an increase in what they claim you owe. And really is only applicable to pros who file as pros.

But since online "sessions" are not defined, and clearly not the same as a live session (where you sit at one table with x amount and leave with y amount) I think you would be in a very good position to argue that just netting for the year is OK - SO LONG AS YOU REALLY HAVE THE RECORDS TO BACK UP YOUR STATED AMOUNTS, whatever form you keep them in.

Skallagrim

[JPFisher55]

Skall, I'm not sure that you are correct about the netting sessions. I have read recent court cases that have ruled that the IRC requires a taxpayer to report gambling winnings as income and deduct gambling losses as an itemized deduction. I read a case where a municipal court judge, in Utah I think, was convicted of income tax evasion because he failed to report his gambling winnings as income even though his net sessions added to a loss.
However, I have not read any good definition of a gambling session. I keep records by the day and I think that will suffice as a session.

[Skallagrim]

You are right JP about netting "sessions" and I should have been more clear that I was only speaking of online winnings, not live - the rules for live play have been settled for years and should be followed as written: session records, not netting. And of course you are right that, unless you are filing as a pro, winnings are income and losses are itemized deductions.

My opinion was strictly for online play where defining a "session" is next to impossible, especially if you multi-table.

The possible Utah judge case supports my basic principle, though, always report your income correctly; violating that rule is the big no-no. And that means if you are not a pro and made any real money at any time, declare it and then itemize as deductions the losses from other times.

Thanks for the clarification.

Skallagrim

[JPFisher55]

Skall, I don't know if anyone knows what a session is for online gambling. I guess that the IRS will opine that each table entry and exit is a session. However, I doubt that they will want to test this view in court. I keep records by the day and I think that the IRS will accept that method. But I do not really know for sure.
If we ever succeed in getting legal, for certain, online poker, then the next goal for the PPA would be to change the tax law to only consider net gambling winnings as income. Then you could net and report the net as income.
In a better world the US would join the rest of the Western world by not taxing gambling winnings. Except then the US would have value added taxes, higher income tax rates and maybe higher gas taxes. If only the size of the US government could be reduced. Oh well, one can dream.

[Robin Foolz]

[ QUOTE ]
Willfully failing to report taxable income is a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Willfully failing to report taxable income is a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many cases where not reporting non-taxable income that could affect your taxes or prove assets can lead to serious trouble.

So just assuming that since you consider the income a non-taxible event for example a 10k+ deposit in the foreign poker account even though you may have never gambled will cause you problems, although there is no income.


D$D

[Robin Foolz]

[ QUOTE ]


There are many cases where not reporting non-taxable income that could affect your taxes or prove assets can lead to serious trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not sure what you're saying here. perhaps if you could reword.

[ QUOTE ]
So just assuming that since you consider the income a non-taxible event for example a 10k+ deposit in the foreign poker account even though you may have never gambled will cause you problems, although there is no income.

[/ QUOTE ]

a 10k deposit into x poker site is just that, a 10k deposit into x poker site. nothing illegal about it, unless it's explicitly illegal in your state/country/province. maybe i misunderstand what you're saying, sorry.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


There are many cases where not reporting non-taxable income that could affect your taxes or prove assets can lead to serious trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not sure what you're saying here. perhaps if you could reword.

[ QUOTE ]
So just assuming that since you consider the income a non-taxible event for example a 10k+ deposit in the foreign poker account even though you may have never gambled will cause you problems, although there is no income.

[/ QUOTE ]

a 10k deposit into x poker site is just that, a 10k deposit into x poker site. nothing illegal about it, unless it's explicitly illegal in your state/country/province. maybe i misunderstand what you're saying, sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets stick to the foreign bank account you have in the form of a named but often unnumbered off shore poker accounts. Not reporting that asset if combined amounts to over $10,000.00 is a crime. It is an IRS regulation/law.

Form 99-22.1

This is true even if it generates no income at all.

Zero payment or original discount bonds are another type of asset that generate no income but can create income that may or may not be taxible.

There are literally thousands of ways to generate income, many of which are very hard for the IRS to track, some they don't even try to capture.



D$D

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
But since online "sessions" are not defined, and clearly not the same as a live session (where you sit at one table with x amount and leave with y amount) I think you would be in a very good position to argue that just netting for the year is OK - SO LONG AS YOU REALLY HAVE THE RECORDS TO BACK UP YOUR STATED AMOUNTS, whatever form you keep them in.

Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it would be safer to consider online sessions by game type, by day, as the lowest level that a session should be defined at. Netting by year seems to me to be an invitation for a visit.

[Robin Foolz]

[ QUOTE ]

Lets stick to the foreign bank account you have in the form of a named but often unnumbered off shore poker accounts. Not reporting that asset if combined amounts to over $10,000.00 is a crime. It is an IRS regulation/law.
D$D

[/ QUOTE ]


can you tell me where in the internal revenue code this requirement appears? if it appears there, i would assume it would clearly lay out for whom does it apply and for what specific purpose and for what assets. i would appreciate it.

assuming your statement is true, imo poker accounts are not banks in the eyes of the government anyway. not even close.take for instance paypal. it can be argue that it has more "banking" functionality than a poker account/balance yet the federal government has made it clear paypal is not a bank; hence, why it's not regulated at the federal level as such. if paypal is not a bank, which has a bunch of bank-like features, then neither is a poker account/site.

[oldbookguy]

it is not specific, 'BANK' account offshore, any holding offshore in an account, even if you are only a signator and not the funds owner.

Read your 1040, there is a section and it tells you the code section and refers you to the IRS publication.

That or go to www.IRS.gov (http://www.IRS.gov) and LOOK and READ it.

Awww, click:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4261.pdf


obg

[Robin Foolz]

[ QUOTE ]
it is not specific, 'BANK' account offshore, any holding offshore in an account, even if you are only a signator and not the funds owner.

Read your 1040, there is a section and it tells you the code section and refers you to the IRS publication.

That or go to www.IRS.gov (http://www.IRS.gov) and LOOK and READ it.

Awww, click:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4261.pdf


obg

[/ QUOTE ]

hi, the form you cited starts off with "you may be required..." which clearly means some people are required and some people aren't. if it meant everyone is required, it would have said so. hence why i'm trying to find out the relevant statute in the IRC that applies to the ""who is required and who isn't required" topic. btw, i found no IRC references in the form you cited.

[oldbookguy]

That was merely information, get the form mentioned and the booklet to go with it on the IRS web site.

obg

[mrick]

[ QUOTE ]

The whole "sessions" thing is an IRS regulation, not a law. They can use it to try and invalidate (and thus lower) your claim of losses if you dont have "sessions" properly recorded. This only happens if there is an audit.Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't even a regulation. It is something postulated by a CPA that interpreted the documentation requirements.

For non pros - losing transactions go on Sch A. Isn't that silly. Can you imagine grandma in Las Vegas writing down every pull of the slot and putting losing ones on Sch A and grossing up income with the winners.

Here's the law:

“Losses from wagering transactions shall be allowed only to the extent of the gains from such transactions.”

There is only two choices - don't net or net. And you are talking transactions.

If the IRS lets you net all your blackjack play, then they consider it one transaction - strictly speaking.

Practically, no can be expected to abide by the law. You have to compromise it.

So you can group by session with each session being when you change games or tables like one CPA has suggested. Or if you only play live games, maybe each trip becomes a session. Or transaction. Clearly a tournament is a single transaction.

The IRS instructions talk about gambling winnings from... and list various games. Maybe you show your net by game. Maybe by casino.

I would separate out any W-2G and report it separately so the IRS can find it. The rest I would net on some rational basis - but not by year. You want to be able to see some winners and some losers.

All said and done, the tax law is not only unfair, it isn't really possible for most people to comply. It's dumb.

That's why I don't get bent out of shape when someone talks about not being audited. Those that say I don't worry, I pay my taxes - probably don't pay them correctly and probably should worry.

They are not the only ones. Go to Las Vegas and watch all those people plowing thousands of dollars into various wins and losses. They don't report. They go home a bit poorer than they came and they don't worry about carrying a notebook listing every bet and paying taxes on the winning bets. Who thinks they should?

mrick