40NL: QQ overpair gets c/r by shortie in mutliway pot

[kroeliewoelie]

SB = 30/2/1.27 (100)
BB = 22/0/inf (96) (AF not accurate, a lot of checking/folding going on, just no calling yet)

Prima Network No-Limit Hold'em, $0.40 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/convert.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

MP ($29.95)
CO ($25.99)
Button ($70.56)
SB ($37.60)
BB ($16.84)
Hero ($42.22)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.6</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $1.60, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls $1.40, BB calls $1.20.

Flop: ($6.40) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, CO folds, SB calls $5, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $15.64 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $40.62 (All-In)</font>, SB calls $31.20 (All-In).

Turn: ($98.86) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

River: ($98.86) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $98.86

Comments on my line please. Should I fold flop? Should I call and hope SB comes along? Should I repush and hope a flushdraw calls?

[whyzze]

I play it exactly the same...NH sir.

[kroeliewoelie]

What ranges do we assign to each player.

I think BB is strong considering crai, so let's take
BB: sets(44,88,99),JJ+
I think SB is weaker has, i.e. some marginal top or overpair, or a nutflushdraw or a a straightdraw (JT).

Pokerstoving this gives:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.292% 58.80% 01.49% 497021 12574.00 { JJ+, 99-88, 44 }
Hand 1: 21.210% 21.15% 00.06% 178759 508.50 { TT, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, A9s, KdQd, JTs, A9o, JTo }
Hand 2: 18.498% 17.05% 01.45% 144091 12254.50 { QcQs }

This means we are in bad shape?

Since you play it the same, what range do you assign whyzze?

[whyzze]

SB range is a non factor here. I'm raising because I am 90% sure my hand is better than his and if he wants to pad my pockets with money its fine.

BB's range is wide too. he's a shortstack, draws, tptk, 2nd pair, 1010, its all in his range and we are crushing it.

[tdx]

[ QUOTE ]
I play it exactly the same...NH sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

[kroeliewoelie]

I agree you don't have to give shortie much respect. BUT I think that means you shouldn't respect open pushes IMO. Crai is a very strong line. It's usually for value and not as a bluff and certainly not 3-way. Therefore I think the range I mentioned above is not too far off, given that he crai. That means we are drawing to maybe only 1 out against him. So let's consider the main pot lost. That means for the reshove to be profitable we need to have at least as much in our stack after the reshove as before.

The side pot will be only 40 dollars or so, and we need to win 30 of the 40 on average to break even on the reshove. I just don't think there is a feasible calling range against which we have that much equity (i.e 75%).

So I am seriously doubting, whether folding to the c/r isn't better.

----
As I wrote this I just called a c/rai by a shortie on 855 (2 diamonds) flop w/ QdQx. The guy flipped over Q5 and i sucked out with a runner runner flush.

[vixticator]

Big overpair on super coordinated, drawy flop. Get it in every time IMO. BB short so I am not giving him credit for anything and SB is just calling, same there. This isn't really a spot you'd expect a big hand to just overcall. Nice shove when it came back to you. Well played.

[toddxlogan]

Hand played perfectly.

[maciczka]

he had combodraw, right?

[kroeliewoelie]

I am not yet going to reveal their true holdings, will do it later. I still want some discussion about hand ranges of both players.

And I think I will check PT for crai ranges for shortstacks.

Furthermore I think people overvaluate QQ here. It is not KK or AA here. If we assign handranges like I did above, then changing my hand to one of the other overpairs changes the equity in the following way.

JJ ~ 11% equity
QQ ~ 20% equity
KK ~ 37% equity
AA ~ 50% equity

So clearly not overpairs are equal. Some overpairs are just a lot better.

[ROcketRO]

[ QUOTE ]
I play it exactly the same...NH sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

[kroeliewoelie]

I'd still like some responses and arguments why people think my line was correct.

(and for those who like to know SB had AdKd and BB had 99)

[bozzer]

i think i would have flatted the shove - the sb won't be getting good odds and you can stick it in on the turn/induce shoves etc etc.

[kroeliewoelie]

So bozzer, what ranges do you assign that makes sticking more money in this pot profitable?

[kroeliewoelie]

Ok i've checked poker tracker on c/r when i hold high pocket pairs. In my 30k hands database I've seen this situation 13 times for 99+.

1) top pair hands: 6 times (4 times from an ultra shortstack)
2) overpair: 1
3) trips: 2
4) set: 3
5) straight: 1

Conclusion: it's usually a good hand and from a not-so-short shortstack it's usually better than top pair. So I think this suggests my range for BB is not that wrong.