KK PF 124 BB's

[Profish2285]

No read on villain but he seemed pretty solid. His smallish 4 bet confused me. What line does everyone take here, and dont just say shove please. If youre going to say shove please say why. I know the whole range thing, but again, this guy doesnt appear to be an idiot so Im not putting hands like 99 in his range obviously.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

MP: $43.20
CO: $31.15
BTN: $5.50
Hero (SB): $53.15
BB: $28.40
UTG: $10.55

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $0.85</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.80</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $9</font>, Hero....

[kaz2107]

owww here ya go.

luckily they made a WHOLE thread for this spot.

dont FOLD PALEASE!!!!!! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=microplnl&amp;Number=12534334 &amp;page=0&amp;fpart=all)

[Profish2285]

Okay, then whats a general cutoff of number of BB's before folding KK becomes a consideration?

[1tripz1]

Maybe 99 is not in his range but even if his range is only JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AKs, AKo then we still have 4 of the hands beat and 1 is a tie. Thats why its an obvious 5bet.

There is just no way you can fold here.

[Profish2285]

If I 5 bet here, doesnt he play perfectly against me? I am not saying to fold btw, or that I folded. I am just unsure if 5 betting is correct here. How about flat call and c/r a non ace flop?

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, then whats a general cutoff of number of BB's before folding KK becomes a consideration?

[/ QUOTE ]pretty dependant on game conditions and ur read on villian and ur table image. id say as a general rule maybe 250bbs

[Profish2285]

You would seriously stack off 200 bb's against an unknown?

[Genesis]

I think 250BB might be a bit much at micros where there is much less posturing. I was thinking about 150-160BBs range. Standard 5bet is around 81BBs, so roughly double that. But highly dependent on opponent and my image.

[luvetoholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
owww here ya go.

luckily they made a WHOLE thread for this spot.

dont FOLD PALEASE!!!!!! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=microplnl&amp;Number=12534334 &amp;page=0&amp;fpart=all)

[/ QUOTE ]


But hes 124BB deeep.

[Profish2285]

Wow thx luvtoholdem, looks like in your 107 posts you have matured to a level I hope to aspire to. With your great contributions and intellect you will be at the high stakes in no time.

[Micro Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
You would seriously stack off 200 bb's against an unknown?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[Profish2285]

How about in regards to my second question. If I 5 bet, it should narrow my range down so much that villain could play perfect against me, especially if he is solid. So is there any merit to flat calling the 4 bet and crai on any non ace flop?

[whyzze]

Once you get over 250bbs you can consider folding in some odds circumstances. Like a 4bai. But you begin to get odds to call the 4bet and play poker.

[Micro Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
How about in regards to my second question. If I 5 bet, it should narrow my range down so much that villain could play perfect against me, especially if he is solid. So is there any merit to flat calling the 4 bet and crai on any non ace flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

it would be a mistake to fold after 4betting for villain. put 9 in and only has 22 behind, hes about pot committed himself, and at that point i cant see him folding QQ or AK

[Profish2285]

Thats a good point, but honestly, you wouldnt muck QQ or AK in villains spot? I think I would would toss QQ quickly, AK is iffy depending on villain.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You would seriously stack off 200 bb's against an unknown?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[/ QUOTE ]lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lolollololololoololololollolololololololo

i would stack off 3211218732182908038bbs with KK to an unknown.

the only time i even considert folding preflop is when i have 21120 hands on villian and he is playin 7 5 2 and we r both 150bbs+

[Micro Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats a good point, but honestly, you wouldnt muck QQ or AK in villains spot? I think I would would toss QQ quickly, AK is iffy depending on villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

id want to but i would feel pot committed and call. which is likely how villain would feel as well

[Profish2285]

Again to clarify, I didnt fold, and I didnt suggest folding, if thats how it seemed then I apologize. I care more about the appropriate line here. Shoving seems standard, but the calling and crai line doesnt seem to be too bad either. Thats why I wanted to discuss it.

[Micro Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
Again to clarify, I didnt fold, and I didnt suggest folding, if thats how it seemed then I apologize. I care more about the appropriate line here. Shoving seems standard, but the calling and crai line doesnt seem to be too bad either. Thats why I wanted to discuss it.

[/ QUOTE ]

no reason to give him a chance to fold his AK postflop

[Profish2285]

Okay I guess Im giving this too much thought. I guess he has to call with AK even against a 5 bet because of the odds hes getting at that point.

[Gelin1]

[ QUOTE ]
How about in regards to my second question. If I 5 bet, it should narrow my range down so much that villain could play perfect against me, especially if he is solid. So is there any merit to flat calling the 4 bet and crai on any non ace flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I 5-bet shoved aces the other day and got a pretty quick call from AKo 150bbs deep at NL10...

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Again to clarify, I didnt fold, and I didnt suggest folding, if thats how it seemed then I apologize. I care more about the appropriate line here. Shoving seems standard, but the calling and crai line doesnt seem to be too bad either. Thats why I wanted to discuss it.

[/ QUOTE ]with the amount of times the flop either misses him, kills ur action, or lets him flop a hand that is ahead a shove is better imo. no way an unknown finds a fold after takin this line. shove away

[Genesis]

After losing a KK vs AA today for 100 BBs I decided to check through Poker Tracker to see my preflop all-ins and what I was usually against. I am limiting this to hands where at least 70 BBs went in from *each* all-in player preflop. Over my 22K sample at 10 and 25NL here is all that I found:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Me Opponent Occurrences
AA KK 1
AK AK 1
KK AA 4
KK TT 2
QQ AA 1
TT JJ 1
</pre><hr />
Obviously the sample is way too small to draw any conclusions from at this point. What I wanted to see was how often it was AA, which was 50% for my tiny sample, as well as how often these preflop all-ins occurred with decent sized stacks.

[ICMoney]

http://www.poker-ga.com/images/kkevercut.jpg