50nl, extraction with flopped FH

[ShipitFMA]

Villian is unknown;

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

MP: $50
CO: $51.20
BTN: $57.45
Hero (SB): $96
BB: $62.70
UTG: $101.35

Pre-Flop: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $2.50</font>, Hero calls $2.25, BB folds, UTG calls $2

Flop: ($8) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $5</font>, UTG folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $15</font>, Hero?????????????

[Hebel]

calls, check raises the turn. if hes on a diamond draw he may check behind as well, and you want him to get there.

[toddxlogan]

3 possibilities:

1) Just shove. Likely folds out AA and KK (maybe maybe maybe he does this with AK), but assuredly gets a stack from AQ, KQ, probably even JQ. Thats about the extent of villain's range right now, as far as I can see... this is a ballsy board for villain to be raising 88-JJ, but I guess it may be possible.

2) Call, donk turn. I think this line kind of sucks. Don't see any particular merit for it, except if villain has maybe AA and is the kind who can't fold to a single bet but might crap his pants to a c/r.

3) Call, CRAI on turn. The classic stackadonk. Collects the maximum from hands that might fold to a flop 3-bet but are willing to put in another bet on the turn, and still stacks AQ and KQ, probably JQ as far as I can see. Don't think the turn c/r looks much scarier to an unknown than a flop 3-bet, and the turn c/r line adds in an extra bet from the opponent when they are still folding to your shove.

Conclusion: stackadonk. Call, CRAI on turn. IMO.

[Schiester]

I'm inclined to call this flop planning to b/3bet AI any non-diamond turn / c/c any diamond turn. His range here could be anything from low pps through JJ,KK,AA / AK(d) / AQ / KQ. I can't see anything but a queen pushing you off this hand come the turn. No sense in chasing him off this flop while you're this far ahead of his range imo.

[toddxlogan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm inclined to call this flop planning to b/3bet AI any non-diamond turn / c/c any diamond turn. His range here could be anything from low pps through JJ,KK,AA / AK(d) / AQ / KQ. I can't see anything but a queen pushing you off this hand come the turn. No sense in chasing him off this flop while you're this far ahead of his range imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why donk the turn? Just scares away hands that are murdered. Why not let said hands hang themselves with another bet? Its not like a hand that is willing to raise ANOTHER turn donk isn't going to be turn c-betting to us again...right?

[whiteladder81]

I would rep the fd and push. If it was a rb flop I would call.

[Schiester]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm inclined to call this flop planning to b/3bet AI any non-diamond turn / c/c any diamond turn. His range here could be anything from low pps through JJ,KK,AA / AK(d) / AQ / KQ. I can't see anything but a queen pushing you off this hand come the turn. No sense in chasing him off this flop while you're this far ahead of his range imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why donk the turn? Just scares away hands that are murdered. Why not let said hands hang themselves with another bet? Its not like a hand that is willing to raise ANOTHER turn donk isn't going to be turn c-betting to us again...right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like donking when deep to build a pot vs. crai. The reason I would consider this on the board above is that it can look like I'm trying to get a cheap river (i.e. blocking) while chasing my draw.

As a result, if he's still as keen on his hand as he was on the flop, I'm likely to extract more through him raising than I am from him betting after I check. This way he is more likely to be pot committed with an overpair / trips.

I see your logic but I've been getting value out of hands like this of late by donking small... imo people with reasonable hands at &gt;50nl seem to see small donk bets as a sign of weakness.

Please comment if you don't like this.

[Khumalo]

I'm with Schiester, not that some of the other lines proposed aren't also good.

Tank on flop, then call. Donk any turn for $5 (or something equally offensive), get raised by a huge range. Tank/shove all turns and/or 'reluctantly' call diamond turns, then lead small or CR river depending on flow/reads.

[BevillTheDevil]

I kinda feel like a fish for thinkin this but i like a minraise. If you push you could maybe get folds from JJ,KK,AA and draws. If you wait until the turn if another diamond hits if villian is decent that could kill your action from Qx hands and JJ+. If you minraise your def gettin called/pushed by Qx hands, your givin villian good odds to either call/push a lone flush draw and i think even JJ+ is having trouble foldin there. I really doubt i would have thought of this at the table but for some reason i like it...tbh though any line isnt bad as long as your not foldin /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Check_The_Nuts]

yeah I also min3bet. holla! :-)

[toddxlogan]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah I also min3bet. holla! :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

TBH, I also think min3bet isn't that bad here, either. Though it certainly looks superstrong, it sort of leaves villain with a bunch of [censored] options, and no good ones.

[teh_sponge]

i like the idea of donking the turn because it looks weaker and could induce a shove. However, if villain just calls the turn how would you guys play a diamond river vs a non diamond river??

[ShipitFMA]

shoving &gt; min3bet
imo shoving looks more like a FD than a queen whereas a min3bet is a queen a large % of the time.

[ShipitFMA]

[ QUOTE ]
i like the idea of donking the turn because it looks weaker and could induce a shove. However, if villain just calls the turn how would you guys play a diamond river vs a non diamond river??

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet ANY river.

[toddxlogan]

[ QUOTE ]
shoving &gt; min3bet
imo shoving looks more like a FD than a queen whereas a min3bet is a queen a large % of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does to you.

But are we assuming random unknown A) is at least a second-level thinker and B) has the knowledge/discipline to fold a decent hand based upon that second-level read of your play? Cause at 50NL, I don't.

[LiveNow]

super standard shove. Any queen calls, and your hand looks like a draw as well as gets called by draws

[BevillTheDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
shoving &gt; min3bet
imo shoving looks more like a FD than a queen whereas a min3bet is a queen a large % of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF you shove you have a lot more FE against draws and 1 pair hands which we WANT to call. So against someone decent a minraise here would scream either Qx or just some weird as donk raise. Villian still wont fold his/her Qx and now they have the odds to draw out on your Qx...plus when they see that minraise and have like JJ+ they are dieing inside if they fold (ppl suck and cant fold those hands)...what are you gettin called by more often w/ a shove compared to a minraise?? 77-TT or soemthin?? i dont think so...a min3bet is super sexy here IMO.

[monkeymaps]

shove doesnt really look that much like a draw IMO I mean I know villan and you have no history but I dont see alot of 3 bet shoving with FDs on paired boards. (unless your image is super lag). Push folds out all underpairs,FDs and prob KK+. and only gets looked up by Qx. (how much if his range is QX?)

agianst a thinking player I like a push cause it looks bluffy but agianst an unknown I like 3bet minraise or call c/r all in turn.

[traz]

Sometimes I shove and sometimes I call/crai turn. I don't really care either way and both lines work great against different opponents.