50nl, KK hand 200bb+ deep

[ShipitFMA]

posting this in stages, i should add i have limited experience playing this deep

<font color="blue">villian is 32/17/2 (480) </font>

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

MP: $21.40
CO: $38.85
BTN: $22.10
SB: $77.75
BB: $129.80
Hero (UTG): $113.75

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, 3 folds, SB calls $1.75, <font color="red">BB raises to $6.50</font>, Hero ??

[Profish2285]

I am not sure about your style, but I very rarely 4 bet so with that said, I would probably flat call here, planning to c/r most flops without an A and ideally without a Q or J either.

[corsakh]

shipit

[GSykes]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure about your style, but I very rarely 4 bet so with that said, I would probably flat call here, planning to c/r most flops without an A and ideally without a Q or J either.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has position.

[GSykes]

You have to 4bet IMO pf.

[ShipitFMA]

SO profish, you're happy getting allin on a 2 4 8r board for 200+ bbs?

[ShipitFMA]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to 4bet IMO pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

if we get 5 bet?

little voice - "the 5th bet is always aces!"

[prodonkey]

cross that bridge when you get there.. I 4 bet to 25

[Profish2285]

Yes, me personally I am happy to get it in on that board. Like I said, if I almost never 4 bet pf, then isnt it transparent what my hand is when I do? Maybe I give my opponents too much credit.

[Sniiii]

4bet without a doubt. If BB instantly pushes, consider folding.

[GSykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, me personally I am happy to get it in on that board. Like I said, if I almost never 4 bet pf, then isnt it transparent what my hand is when I do? Maybe I give my opponents too much credit.

[/ QUOTE ]

the SB cold called if you call the SB is getting in there too.. you dont want to see a flop 3 way.

That being said I don't 4-bet to like 21.95

[Profish2285]

Anyone who says 4 bet is seeming to also say fold to the 5th bet. That is honestly major spew unless u know for a fact it is aces and only aces. If you factor in ak or qq then it is a must call.

[corsakh]

Calling is bad, about 9 out of 10. 10 would be folding.

[Profish2285]

I guess one more thing is, if you do 4 bet planning to fold to a 5th, again which I think is terrible until someone can show me where I am wrong, then what is the size of the 4 bet?

[matrix]

I flat call here and see the flop 3ways in position.

If an Ace drops and there is action in front of me I'd strongly consider folding.

We have a pocket pair 1 time in 8 a King flops and then we are in a re-raised pot THREE ways IN POSITION with nigh on the immortal nuts - I dream about spots like that.

I want to see a flop here - so I'd call.

I'd guess there is also a reasonable chance here that BB is trying a squeeze play with random junk and if he is he'll fold to our re-raise for sure and we lose value.

cons of calling:

we don't close the action - SB can yet re-raise and then we are in a [censored] spot and have to fold (this will almost never happen tho unless he has the goods)

If an Ace flops we just arrived in RIO central and probably the best play then is to fold and kick the cat or something...

I think that the combination of being in position after the flop with a good chance of flopping a set here vs 2 villains and possibly winning a HUGE POT makes this a call.

[Kasane]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who says 4 bet is seeming to also say fold to the 5th bet. That is honestly major spew unless u know for a fact it is aces and only aces. If you factor in ak or qq then it is a must call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian's tend to be really honest 200BB+ deep, moderately aggro villains who call to much pf included.

A 5bet from villain would be really close to an automatic AA this deep and with these numbers for a non-maniac at these stakes.

Under 150BBs the range is mucho wider and pot odds and blah-blah blah...

[Profish2285]

Thank you matrix, you said it better than I could. People are saying to reraise because you are in position, but shouldnt you be more likely to reraise oop?

[ShipitFMA]

When responding to this please MAKE SURE to let me know what you're doing if you raise and get shoved on; etc. I'd like to know what you're doing in every spot in this hand

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

MP: $21.40
CO: $38.85
BTN: $22.10
SB: $77.75
BB: $129.80
Hero (UTG): $113.75

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, 3 folds, SB calls $1.75, <font color="red">BB raises to $6.50</font>, Hero calls $4.50, SB calls $4.50

Flop: ($19.50) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">BB bets $13</font>, Hero???

[Profish2285]

I think once you get to the flop and you are three handed you must raise here. And yes, I am still getting it all in here as if you are willing to take a flop, then this is one of the safest ones out there, no A, Q, or J.

[corsakh]

At least its not AQJ /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Chomp]

I generally agree Matrix, but this bit confuses me:

[ QUOTE ]
we don't close the action - SB can yet re-raise and then we are in a [censored] spot and have to fold (this will almost never happen tho unless he has the goods)

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this a con? The opposite is the case IMO - I think this is yet another reason to flat and I'd be fine getting it in if SB shoved.

I can go either way preflop. HU, I'd be slightly more likely to flat, 3-way 4b. But looking at villain's stats, I think a 3b loses too much value.

Flop, I think we need to raise to trap the pairs between 8's and Q's.

[thing85]

I love to shove on this flop. You will occasionally see AA but will very often see 99-QQ (and a very rare split with KK). So many LAGs see this flop and are like "OMG I HAVE OVERPAIR" instacalling an all-in (they would never fear the 8 because the 8 tries to extract more value and probably only pushes on the turn).

This guy is LAGy and he 3-bets with a lot of hands. Your shove all-in keeps away the draws and extracts maximum value from the over-pairs below KK. Maybe this is a bit aggressive, but if you let this go to a turn card, there are a lot of cards you don't want to see that make your decision a lot more difficult.

[ICMoney]

A PSR would be to $58.

I make it $50 and play for stacks.

I would also play a draw, combo or set the same way if I got to the flop like we did.

[Profish2285]

I feel like today is the day I agree with everything ICMoney is saying, but he hit it right on the head.

[ICMoney]

One thought I just had:

I'm not sure how this reraise thing works on FT.

If you raise to $50 and the SB pushes, he wouldn't have double to raise. So will BB and you just have to option to call/fold or will BB be able to reopen the betting and shove over you?

You would have to raise to $42 instead of 50 to give the BB the option to reopen the betting if that's the case.

I think this flop is a must-raise.

Do we want to get it in here or raise and then get it in on a safe turn?


If this was a 4b pot I think straight/flush draws would be less likely but they are in the range now.


Obv this sb pushing and then bb pushing will prob be a fairly rare case. Maybe we should just focus on the big stack?

Thoughts?

[ajml]

Rather than give my own crappy reply I'd recommend reading Pokey's post in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=microplnl&amp;Number=12536166 &amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Main=12536023&amp;Words=+Pokey&amp;topic=&amp;Se arch=true#Post12536166) which covers this hand preflop pretty much perfectly.

[ICMoney]

Pokey suggested calling pfr and calling down on F/T/R but hero had KK on a Qxx dry flop.

[bozzer]

i raise flop and am happy getting it in.

[monkeymaps]

just for the sake of discussion for those saying dont 4 bet do you ever 4 bet with anything besides aces? or just dont 4 bet ever?

cause if im not 4 betting here than im not with aces either cause its just too transparent.

guess what I am asking is if your not 4 betting here what spots are you 4 betting in? (im not saying that 4betting is &gt;than flatting here just curious)

[Hail Eris]

I 4bet to $17 because that is what I do with air and AK. If you don't 4bet light, and never really 4bet much at all, I would still go ahead and 4bet here just because the stacks are deep. Probably more to like $22.

As played, you got a good flop and you should raise and stack off.

[corsakh]

Pokey misread the hand and the bet sizes / stacks were screwed to the point of know return. 4bet is a must. You have to define the hand. I 3bet with any pair 200 deep.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Pokey misread the hand and the bet sizes / stacks were screwed to the point of know return. 4bet is a must. You have to define the hand. I 3bet with any pair 200 deep.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want to define our hand? So we can be sure villain will play perfectly? 50nl doesn't play aggressively enough to 4bet here because your opponent will play everything perfectly against you, shoving aces and folding everything else. You can't stack off for 200bb with KK preflop and you cant 4bet-fold it either. Flat calling is easily best.

On the flop, raise and get all-in, what a great place to stack QQ/JJ, and snap off a bluff from AK. Contrary to preflop it is not a mistake to stack off here because now his range is a lot wider than just hands which beat you and includes a lot of hands which will call and lose.

I would say call and stack off on the turn, because it looks like you are drawing, but basically if either draw hits it kills your action and you get no more value so I'd just raise the flop to like $52 and look to get it in there, and open shove any turn.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
4bet here because your opponent will play everything perfectly against you, shoving aces and folding everything else

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bollocks. I can produce tons of hands being called preflop by AJ and similar in this position.

I am completely comfortable stacking off 200BB deep with KK, its a matter of BR really. I play long sessions and its not even deep, pretty much standard after 3 hours of play.

200BB 3betting / calling range is huge. You can't argue that people are calling with pp and all softs of connectors. KK is a vulerable hand multiway. Ten times so when your little deep. You gonna see an ace a lot of the time. You gonna get set mined a lot of the time. Its multiway, it means your not gonna be able to go for pot control and there is likely to be a bet and a raise on the flop. I much rather put money in myself preflop while I still know where I stand.

Most importnatly. It simply cuts 4betting out of your arsenal.