QQ against 22/18, pots getting big, turn line?

[AZplaya]

Villian in this hand is pkt_diamonds. I haven't seen him at $50 until the past week or so but he seems pretty solid. I have him at 22/18. We've both been pretty active, he's 3 bet me a few times, I've 4 bet him twice and he's folded. Given our history I decided to just call pre and play poker.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

BB: $50
UTG: $120.45
MP: $19.70
CO: $50.20
Hero (BTN): $66.10
SB: $60.85

Pre-Flop: Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.25</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $8</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $5.75

Flop: ($17) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $14</font>, SB calls $14

Turn: ($45) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero???

the pots getting huuuugggeee and I'm starting to doubt if I have the best hand. Do we play for stacks or check behind. If we check, do we call the inevitable river bet? If we play for stacks, what hand does he play like this that I'm ahead of?

[bozzer]

this is a really nasty spot.

so we bet the flop because we want to get value from draws/worse hands right? the problem is if he's 3betting with a wide range and he's hit a draw on this flop, he probably cbets 100% of the time, correct? tbh, if he has AK he probably cbets here mostly too. he could check 99/JJ and try to pot control it or TT/KK/AA to try to induce.

i'm not sure he's calling with enough worse to value bet here. I'd value bet KK however.

basically if he calls our cbet and then checks and we are thinking 'oh no maybe our hand isn't good' on a turn blank for most of his range something's gone wrong.

on the turn i think if we check we've gotta call a river shove if he makes one, and if he checks river we'll be valuebetting so i stick it in now and hope for the best. but pot control was called for earlier in the hand imo.

[corsakh]

Once you call 3bet with a hand preflop for face value, you stack off on a favouralbe flop for 100BB. No questions asked.

[GSykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you call 3bet with a hand preflop for face value, you stack off on a favouralbe flop for 100BB. No questions asked.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree 100%

[prodonkey]

why not just 4 bet? I've seen a lot of these posts lately where this happens.. lots of betting and raising in past.. hero gets premium hand.. and then decides to just call.

[Kloonike]

I would bet around 1/2 of the pot on turn. If you check behind, he has a chance to draw out if you are ahead. To force him out or reduce the chances of his river bet if he decides to call.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you call 3bet with a hand preflop for face value, you stack off on a favouralbe flop for 100BB. No questions asked.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is almost 150bbs deep. handy rule but hello losing money.

[corsakh]

Boz, its a resteal war. Villain is 22/18. There are tons of SC in his range. The only semi reasonable hand is TT and even then I doulbt he would give two free cards with it.

[bozzer]

sorry i lied about it being nearly 150bbs deep - 120bbs.

I don't get a c/c from villain with an SC that has some piece of the flop here. I agree he does it sometimes, but it's not 'tons'.

Talking about giving free cards is only relevant when we have lots of equity to 'protect'.

[members_only]

Well it's a big pot, the board is very drawy and we have probably the best hand. So I'd say we do have a lot of equity to protect, on both the flop and turn. Plus we are quite uncertain about opponent's range (I would be at least), which favours betting here.

I think given history AZ should be happy to get it in here.

[Kasane]

Nothing villain could reasonably have beats you here that I can think of. His c/c is really odd, however. Sets or overpairs would have bet to protect their hands from the draws...hm, 78s would really like that flop if it 3bet light.

IDK, alarm bells are ringing, but I don't think you can check this turn. Pot control is kinda out the window as you have less than a psb. If he's giving you cards with a monster, I guess he deserves the money.

He called my 3bet light pf last night with A8s after uber-fish in BB cold called -- stacked my overpair with an oesfd on the flop. I couldn't argue with his post flop play on that one... but I was kinda pissed that a "good" player called me that light there pf, given that uber fish probably had his A out-kicked.

[Tanky]

I play 22/18 and my range in the sb here is any PP, lots of SCs and AK, AQ, AJs etc - I think you have to be ahead here after 2 checks. I would rather bet the turn to protect my hand than play guessing games on the river if we check the turn behind. Bet $30 and call shove, check river behind if checked to.

[matrix]

if villain is ANY good at all (his stats and 3betting frequency suggest he has a clue) you are playing for stacks already cos he'll push (or should push) ANY river card. if you check this turn

Get it all-in now and take your medicine. You have an Overpair - villain has 3bet you twice already and folded to stiff opposition - the pot:stacksize ratio is very favourable for a one pair hand - we are pretty well committed to this pot - so push em in. If you back off the gas here this villain will start owning you with preflop 3bets more often I think.

Lets say he has KK and snap calls and drags the pot - in the future if he 3bets you preflop and you flat call he might well skew his opinion of your preflop 3bet calling range. Which gives you licence to mix it up more and get him to make big expensive mistakes somewhere down the road - you gotta think long term.

Edit: missed half a sentence Edit in italics

tho I like the bet $30 call shove/ check behind river if checked to otherwise call any bet line better than pushing the turn here I think.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
Well it's a big pot, the board is very drawy and we have probably the best hand. So I'd say we do have a lot of equity to protect, on both the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i guess i was making more of a general comment. in this hand i think i'm saying flop is more WA/WB than it appears, to the extent that a check is indicated.

turn you have to get it in.

[kaz2107]

i agree with most everyone else. cant see how u wouldnt stack off. and i think u r in good shape. wut hand that beats u does he check the flop AND the turn. cant imagine he is doin this with KK+. i think he has a medium strength hand here a ton of the time

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with most everyone else. cant see how u wouldnt stack off. and i think u r in good shape. wut hand that beats u does he check the flop AND the turn. cant imagine he is doin this with KK+. i think he has a medium strength hand here a ton of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean everyone except me (since i'm the only one advocating a flop check)? i've said twice already that turn play for stacks. villains turn check has no relevance to the flop question, which is where the disagreement is.

Hero bets 33$ and calls a shove.

[Bryanmtl]

against pkt_diamonds Im stacking off here everytime

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]

He called my 3bet light pf last night with A8s after uber-fish in BB cold called -- stacked my overpair ... but I was kinda pissed that a "good" player called me that light there pf,

[/ QUOTE ]

meant to pick up on this earlier.

i) don't get pissed when people call you light - adapt and use that info against them.

ii)Sooted aces are great hands to call 3 bets with cos you stand a good chance of flopping an Ace and busting someones KK/QQ/JJ as well as making a flush/2pair to beat them as well.

Axs is a ~30/70 dog preflop to KK. Once the flop comes down you're either crushed or in a position to make a +EV call/push (once you take into account things like dead money in the pot already the remaining stacksizes and possible fold equity) and it's usually pretty easy to tell which it is - i.e whiff the flop fold - hit the flop get the chips in... As long as you make sure your implied odds are good enough either by not calling tooo big a preflop bet relative to your stack (thus keeping a favourable stack/potsize ratio)or by having more than 1 villain to play with Axs can be a nice little earner - and obv like every hand it's MUCH better played n position.(LDO)

[trontron]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero bets 33$ and calls a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

[wingchunflush]

I agree with everyone else you hit this flop as good as possible other than hitting a set, I am stacking off here everytime. I like the raise to $33 and then call a shove.

[AZplaya]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you call 3bet with a hand preflop for face value, you stack off on a favouralbe flop for 100BB. No questions asked.

[/ QUOTE ]
So do you advocate 4 betting pre or do you like calling with position?

I guess I'm really lost because I don't see villian as the type of player who is check/calling OOP with a medium strenth hand in a big 3 bet pot. Wouldn't a hand like 77 - JJ cbet this flop and try to take it down? What makes a very aggresive player suddenly go into check/call mode after 3 betting pre? Wouldn't a draw c/r ai on this flop? Also keep in mind, my range for cold calling $8 pre is fairly narrow, and doesn't include many hands that would flop a fd, so villian shouldn't be terribly concerned about giving a free card. IDK maybe this is an easy turn bet and stack off with a double fist pump, but I felt that villians line smelled of "lol I'm gonna let this tag hang himself with his jacks"

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you call 3bet with a hand preflop for face value, you stack off on a favouralbe flop for 100BB. No questions asked.

[/ QUOTE ]
So do you advocate 4 betting pre or do you like calling with position?

I guess I'm really lost because I don't see villian as the type of player who is check/calling OOP with a medium strenth hand in a big 3 bet pot. Wouldn't a hand like 77 - JJ cbet this flop and try to take it down? What makes a very aggresive player suddenly go into check/call mode after 3 betting pre? Wouldn't a draw c/r ai on this flop? Also keep in mind, my range for cold calling $8 pre is fairly narrow, and doesn't include many hands that would flop a fd, so villian shouldn't be terribly concerned about giving a free card. IDK maybe this is an easy turn bet and stack off with a double fist pump, but I felt that villians line smelled of "lol I'm gonna let this tag hang himself with his jacks"

[/ QUOTE ]u say ur range is narrow to call a 3bet here so dont u think it is pretty likely that villian got cold feet with his 88+ but then after he checked realized that u should b betting the flop with n e 2. so now he feels compelled to call with a pair. againt tho he checks. why wouldnt he bet the flop OR turn here. doesnt he think u r decent enough to not bet the turn unless u have QQ+ here??? and if he doesnt have AA then wouldnt he want to protect against an A hitting the river??? idk i think this is a meh hand MUCH more often then a huge hand.