$10NL - KK Against Flop Raise - Shove here?

[CaptainNurple]

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
4 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $18.36
Button: $10.79
SB: $8.84
Hero: $10.10

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
2 folds, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.3</font>, SB calls.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($0.7, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $0.8</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $1.6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero?</font>

I know my pf raise was too small. I think it was a misclick or something.

Anyway, do I just shove here and not overanalyze? Or is there a different line?

Opponent is 26/5/0.53 over 800 hands.

All comments appreciated.

[kroeliewoelie]

You beat 99-QQ, A8, a flushdraw, a straight draw. And only lose to AA or a set. I shove here (and am happy with it).

[HasPair]

All day long.

[ICMoney]

Not really sure why you sligtly overbet the flop.

I prob make it more pf - but only bet .6 into .7.

Against a 17/15 who makes a 3x cR ai, I'm prob shoving.

In this case he is 26/5/0.53 over 800 hands.

I want to say call and maybe call &lt;1/2 psb, but you are prob way behind and the only card that you like is the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

I think a player like this would just CC with a straight/flush draw.

You made a strong bet and he isn't worried.
If he had a set, I would think he would want to charge you more but he's prob the type to "not chase away his customers."

Folding seems weak-tight^2 but you can fold or maybe call one more reasonable bet.

Would be interested to hear thoughts.
Thanks.

[ICMoney]

Were those datamined hands?

How often does he fold his SB and fold to CBs?

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
You beat 99-QQ, A8, a flushdraw, a straight draw. And only lose to AA or a set. I shove here (and am happy with it).

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think a weak guy like this is raising a draw?
Obv, calling with A8 and then MR on this board is terrible, but so are his stats.

I think you see a made hand more often than not.

[CaptainNurple]

[ QUOTE ]
Were those datamined hands?

How often does he fold his SB and fold to CBs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, datamined. Is there a stat in PT to show how often someone folds to a cbet? That would be good to know...

[CaptainNurple]

[ QUOTE ]
Not really sure why you sligtly overbet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was 8-tabling and I haven't gotten time to learn/set up AHK yet, so the only button available to me on prima (unless I wanna type in my bets) is "bet pot".

[ QUOTE ]
Against a 17/15 who makes a 3x cR ai, I'm prob shoving.

In this case he is 26/5/0.53 over 800 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

So because he's more LP, you're saying there's a much higher chance I'm behind here, correct?

[ QUOTE ]
Folding seems weak-tight^2 but you can fold or maybe call one more reasonable bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem, and my reasoning, was this: if I'm gonna fold, fine. But given the strength he has just shown, if I'm gonna do *anything* here then shoving &gt;&gt; calling because either way all my chips are going to the middle. A passive player just sandbagged my flop bet, which says he probably won't slow down and give me a cheap showdown. Thus, a shove *seemed* fine to me here, because like I said, if I'm gonna continue at all, then my chips are probably goin in, so I may as well put some pressure and hopefully get a bit of fold equity out of the situation.

Thoughts?

Thanks for the comments.

[hengelaar]

when you shove you will only be called by sets, AA, and maybe JJ/QQ , call flop and evaluate turn.
The usual thing they do with a set is check turn and then overbet the pot at the river

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Were those datamined hands?

How often does he fold his SB and fold to CBs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, datamined. Is there a stat in PT to show how often someone folds to a cbet? That would be good to know...

[/ QUOTE ]


This may be news to you but you really need this stat in your hud.

If you only have a few stats I would use vpip/pfr/hands/cb/fold to cb.


I have stats everywhere on my screen.

You might want to add fold to turn cb and fires turn cb as well.

[ICMoney]

I was saying to call and re-eval.

You are in position and can see what he does.
If the turn is nasty and he makes a solid bet I don't mind a fold.

If the turn blanks and you want to get it in, fine.
Equity from draws tanks. If he had you beat on the flop, you get stacked on the turn - same thing.

Make sense?

Interesting hand.


Would you mind posting results in a bit?

[CaptainNurple]

[ QUOTE ]
This may be news to you but you really need this stat in your hud.

[/ QUOTE ]

really good to know. I've often wished I had that stat, seems sort of strange to me now that I never actually looked into whether it was available...

[CaptainNurple]

[ QUOTE ]
If the turn blanks and you want to get it in, fine.
Equity from draws tanks. If he had you beat on the flop, you get stacked on the turn - same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't completely understand what you're saying here. I think your point (from your other reply too) is that shoving the flop is bad because it folds out hands I have beat and want to milk, and only gets hands that have *me* beat.

So, for those hands that I beat, I call on the flop and try to get the rest of their money on the turn. If I'm behind I'm behind, so there's no difference between getting stacked on the flop and stacked on the turn, but by just smooth calling on the flop, I get way more value out of those hands I *do* have beat.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Thanks (I'll post results soon).

[CaptainNurple]

Also, ICMoney, what HUD program do you use? I just use GameTime+ and I just looked and didn't see an option to add "folds to cbet" etc. Just the basic stats.

[ICMoney]

Someone else made the point about only being called by better hands, etc.

I wasn't really saying to look for every opportunity to get it ai here.

I was saying try to get to showdown if you can.

I use Chop's 3bet hud, which is free and very good.

You can get the link and read about it from here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=software&amp;Number=10921172&amp; page=0&amp;fpart=1)

[CaptainNurple]

Cool, thanks man, I'll check it out.

Anyway, results: I pushed, he called and flips over 82.