100nl- AA 200bbs deep against a REG... heres my line wut do u think??

[kaz2107]

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $32.30
CO: $80.50
Button: $229.25
Hero: $194.95
BB: $62.65

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $16.5</font>, 2 folds, Button calls.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($35, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $26</font>, Button calls.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($87, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $57</font>, Hero calls.

River: 3/images/graemlins/club.gif ($201, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero is all-in $95.45</font>, Button calls.



Alright... villian is a reg. prolly one of the more solid regs i play against. havent played with him a ton recently as he has been takin shots at 200nl and i was at 50nl. so we havent played a ton with each other in the last couple months. he is solid but a bit on the nitty side. i have him runnin at 18 12 2 over 500ish hands. nothing specific tho. my image is prolly pretty laggy to him and he prolly has me runnin at sumtin like 25 22 6 or sumtin around those lines. i havent 3 bet him relentlessly or n e thing like that. especially not this session. i have been at the table for only maybe 30 hands and havent done a ton. neither has he. pretty standard up to this point.


k here is wut i want...

This is the way i ended up playin the hand. wut do u like and dislike about the way it played out??? what would you do differently and why???


NO ONE LINE ANSWERES PLEASE!!!!!!

[Gelford]

fold pf

[Wraths Unanimous]

nvm gelford beat me to it. ummm i dont like your preflop 3bet. i think it should be larger because u are oop and deep. i like ~18 maybe 19ish. you bet the flop which is good but then u c/c turn and shove river. i dont think i like this. i would probably have bet the turn and called an all in or c/rai turn. if u are asking if we ever fold the answer is no.

[CashMoney1995]

check raise turn

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]diagf

[CashMoney1995]

[ QUOTE ]
check raise turn

[/ QUOTE ]
okay, i gave a one liner 'cause i hate when people ask you not to. But you don't really have that much left once you call his turn bet. I like checking the turn because it induces, especially if he's floating on the flop. But once he bets, you don't have that much behind, so i prefer just raising AI. This way he has to call with draws that he can fold on that river to your river shove (your chosen line).

[Gelford]

Well ... float or overpair ?


so basically you are checking turn in order to let a floater bet


The question is whether you want to check the river giving the floater a chance to fire again or you wish to bet fearing that a made hand will check behind

Here I am inclined to bet river


So why not c/r turn ???


Well board is dry so not much can harm you and once in a while you need to do wierd [censored]

the downside of this line is when villian checks behind turn with his QQ for pot control and you go do'h due to the missed value.

My preference is to go bet bet bet most of the time, but in poker and war all is fair and it is a usefull variation to pull out of the hat once in a while. Now you can try it as a oop float vs the same villian next time around (tho remember to size bets to that last bet is at least 2/3rds pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]diagf

[/ QUOTE ]


YO! Jump of a cliff ! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ICMoney]

I think your line is fine.

It looks to me the only value we need to worry about is from 99-TT.

I don't think those fire again after you call his turn bet. However, with the river pairing, I think he might talk himself into a call.

KK/QQ/sets are stacking either way.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Well ... float or overpair ?


so basically you are checking turn in order to let a floater bet


The question is whether you want to check the river giving the floater a chance to fire again or you wish to bet fearing that a made hand will check behind

Here I am inclined to bet river


So why not c/r turn ???


Well board is dry so not much can harm you and once in a while you need to do wierd [censored]

the downside of this line is when villian checks behind turn with his QQ for pot control and you go do'h due to the missed value.

My preference is to go bet bet bet most of the time, but in poker and war all is fair and it is a usefull variation to pull out of the hat once in a while. Now you can try it as a oop float vs the same villian next time around (tho remember to size bets to that last bet is at least 2/3rds pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]here is wut i was thinkin on the turn. if i fire again i am just begging him to fold QQ or KK or w/e. so i figured i could check call the turn and make it look like i have a midish pair and then on the river he has to call with like n e pair because he is gettin 3 to 1. and if i check call the river i think he checks behind with practically n e thing that i beat except a pure bluff.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check raise turn

[/ QUOTE ]
okay, i gave a one liner 'cause i hate when people ask you not to. But you don't really have that much left once you call his turn bet. I like checking the turn because it induces, especially if he's floating on the flop. But once he bets, you don't have that much behind, so i prefer just raising AI. This way he has to call with draws that he can fold on that river to your river shove (your chosen line).

[/ QUOTE ]well i HATE that one line [censored] from newbs such as u more then n e thing and it puts me on life tilt.

[AZplaya]

I make it closer to $20 pre being this deep.
I really like this line. c/r ai on the turn or c/call, open shove river are both fine.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
I make it closer to $20 pre being this deep.
I really like this line. c/r ai on the turn or c/call, open shove river are both fine.

[/ QUOTE ]forgot to mention that i thought check call and shoving turn since there were 0 draws out there was the same as crai on the turn yet looks much less strong thus getting villian to call wider. u guys agree or disagree with this thought???!?!?

[bknollenberg]

this seems fine and pretty standard, i'd say he has QQ or KK here more than JJ or 88, but i guess it's possible.

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
forgot to mention that i thought check call and shoving turn since there were 0 draws out there was the same as crai on the turn yet looks much less strong thus getting villian to call wider. u guys agree or disagree with this thought???!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I thought when I looked at the hand. I think crai on the turn this deep will let QQ get away alot and occasionaly KK.

[monkover]

is this ftp? i might very well be villain as i´ve been taking shots at 200nl too... not 100% sure though.
I think your line is fine here given how dry the board is.
don´t do this on a wet board though...

[ILikeTrees]

Alright..
Now i'm not entirely psyched on getting 200BB in with one pair, even if it is AA, but the board is insanely dry, so i don't think you played it that bad considering his hand is almost certainly KK,QQ or the opposing AA.

you describe him as fairly tight. and he raised to 5xbb p/f. Now i don't know much of his betting habits, but its up to you whether or not you think he bets this strong with high PP, or does with speculative hands. after his call p.f, i'm more inclined to say it is prolly KK,QQ. again, this all depends on how intelligent you think he is, and whether or not he's apprehensive to get so much money in deepstacked.

basically, there are no draws. so why is he calling? sets seem very unlikely, that meaning he would have had to have played 22/33/88 like this p.f the only one you'd have to worry about is JJ. the river three changes nothing, you were either ahead or behind by the turn.

so the river is the big Question for me. i like the turn call, i don't think raising AI will accomplish much. JJ will call, many others may fold if he's tightish.
I would just check/call the river, rather than valuestack yourself.. i mean, its still entirely plausible he has KK, or maybe QQ, but most likely you're hanging out your stack for JJ to take.

the bottom line is, your very deepstacked. one pair is not alot of hand to put 200BBs in with.
I don't hate the river play, its just a high variance deal. you're prolly 50/50 hand range wise. chopping AA, beating KK, losing to JJ. the only way its profitable is if he will play QQ to the river, which i'm not so sure of.

again, this all changes if you think he can play 22/33 like this pf

Evan

[netstorm]

*grunch*

I love the entire hand. I especially like your check on the turn, as it induces a bet like 70% of the time, since villain will think he has room to outplay you, 200 BB deep. On the river, he has to call with JJ+, and can only fold TT (higly unlikely) and a whiffed AK. He will never bluff the river, because you would be getting great odds, and he'd have no FE. He knows that. So I like the shove on the river.

Standard cooler if he has JJ, but I expect to see QQ, KK here 70% of the time.

[Hail Eris]

C/rai turn is obviously better on the off chance that he's floating with some [censored] that can improve to beat you by the river, or somehow made a spade draw.

It's not like c/c turn and open shove river looks any weaker than c/rai turn here, 200BBs deep. What is he supposed to think you have?

[WhiteWolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright..
Now i'm not entirely psyched on getting 200BB in with one pair, even if it is AA

[/ QUOTE ]
Given that the pot was 3-bet PF, and the stack-to-pot ratio is just above 5 on the flop, we should be happy to get it AI with most boards.

[corsakh]

wtf is the point of betting the river instead of c/r the turn other than giving a free card to two outer?

[NL Newbie]

OooHHhHHh

Well, flops standard and the turn is a lame card.

I see no read, 'hes a reg' means as much to me as "his mother is female".

Basically hes a nit, does he float? Does he 4bet QQ?

Thing is, betting this turn has less ev if he folds QQ sure, but with no read means the check-call line reduces in EV by... a tonne.

Id prefer it with a read, without i really wanna bet this turn. Card sucks tho, uh.

[Nick Royale]

Bet the turn. Don't let him pot control your ass with QQ/KK.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn. Don't let him pot control your ass with QQ/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]i understand this but tbh i wouldnt hate some pot control on the turn n e wayz. i mean i seriously doubt he is calling a reasonable turn bet with QQ and he deff is capable of folding even KK. thus killing my equity in the hand. i honestly can only see one hand that he calls my turn bet with that i beat. and i think he does find a fold with KK at times too. so now i am turning my AA hand (which i think is ahead of his range on the turn) into a bluff because i KNOW AA is behind his range that he calls a turn bet with here.

NLnewb...
i gave u all reads i had at the table. i dont take many notes and as i said we hadnt tangled a ton up to this point. kinda just avoid each other and pwn fish. i dont care how he plays against such fish because it doesnt apply to how he will play against me. so i honestly dont have a ton of stuff on him.

[CashMoney1995]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf is the point of betting the river instead of c/r the turn other than giving a free card to two outer?

[/ QUOTE ]exactly. This is why c/r is &gt; than c/c open shove river.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i understand this but tbh i wouldnt hate some pot control on the turn n e wayz. i mean i seriously doubt he is calling a reasonable turn bet with QQ and he deff is capable of folding even KK. thus killing my equity in the hand. i honestly can only see one hand that he calls my turn bet with that i beat. and i think he does find a fold with KK at times too. so now i am turning my AA hand (which i think is ahead of his range on the turn) into a bluff because i KNOW AA is behind his range that he calls a turn bet with here.


[/ QUOTE ]
So he's folding KK and worse on the turn, but he's calling your riv all-in? You can bet 55 in 89 on the turn and make only a slightly more than 1/2 pot riv shove. I think this is the best line. You're stacking off vs better hands anyways and I think this maximizes your value vs KK/QQ.

Checking the turn hoping he'll pot control, but still with the intention of stacking off isn't a good idea imo.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i understand this but tbh i wouldnt hate some pot control on the turn n e wayz. i mean i seriously doubt he is calling a reasonable turn bet with QQ and he deff is capable of folding even KK. thus killing my equity in the hand. i honestly can only see one hand that he calls my turn bet with that i beat. and i think he does find a fold with KK at times too. so now i am turning my AA hand (which i think is ahead of his range on the turn) into a bluff because i KNOW AA is behind his range that he calls a turn bet with here.


[/ QUOTE ]
So he's folding KK and worse on the turn, but he's calling your riv all-in? You can bet 55 in 89 on the turn and make only a slightly more than 1/2 pot riv shove. I think this is the best line. You're stacking off vs better hands anyways and I think this maximizes your value vs KK/QQ.

Checking the turn hoping he'll pot control, but still with the intention of stacking off isn't a good idea imo.

[/ QUOTE ]ok... on the turn if i fire a second barrel wut is he calling the second barrel with that i beat?!?!?!? MAYBEEEEE KK. i highly doubt he is calling with QQ. so i am turning my hand into a bluff. by checking i am a. allowing him to bluff with a mid pair that he floated or AK that he peeled with, b. letting him think his QQ or KK is actually the best hand so that he either value bets the turn or will call my value bet on the river.

r u guys who r advocating a bet on the turn folding to a shove?!?!!?

[Hail Eris]

Honestly, I think checking the turn is best against this nit, since he's almost certainly not stacking off with &lt;KK for 200BB. The best way to extract from his likely range is precisely by letting him take a pot control line and then betting hard on the river.

Betting the turn becomes much better if you have aggro history in 3bet pots, but it doesn't seem that you do.

But once he bets the turn, the best play is clearly to shove.