Nl 50: to cbet or not to cbet in these 3bet pots

[Pokerdemic]

Do I cbet here? What's the bet size?

This first villain is an unremarkable 27/10/5 over 85 hands.

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

MP: $37.80
CO: $58.20
BTN: $16.75
Hero (SB): $71.80
BB: $9.85
UTG: $10

UTG posts $0.50
Pre-Flop: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG checks, <font color="red">MP raises to $1.50</font>, CO calls $1.50, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7</font>, 3 folds, CO calls $5.50

Flop: ($16.50) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero ?</font>,


This villain turned out to be a bit looser than 30/20/1, but he was running 30/20/1 over the 30 hands. Am I correct to think that this guys range is more likely to have an A in it?

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

Hero (BB): $66.65
UTG: $9.45
CO: $53.65
BTN: $50.75
SB: $49.50

Pre-Flop: T/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, <font color="red">BTN raises to $2</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7</font>, 2 folds, BTN calls $5

Flop: ($15.25) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero ?</font>,

[YanP]

I think you've got to c-bet your normal ammount personally. I c-bet in 3-bet pots pretty much 100% of the time.

[prodonkey]

If he had a good ace he'd probably reraise you preflop.. so I doubt he has AK, AQ eh maybe but you have 2 of the Q's so it makes that much less likely, so I think unless he has KK you should be winning that pot.

I get raised almost 100% of the time when I c-bet the 2nd flop.. so I'd like to see some opinions on that one.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you've got to c-bet your normal ammount personally. I c-bet in 3-bet pots pretty much 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a leak. I check QQ here op. There are no overcards that hurt you and you are in a wa/wb spot out of position in a bloated pot.

[Kasane]

I think I check 1 and bet 2.

1 is wa/wb and a check looks nearly as scary as a bet on 1. There's no draw and villain can't float it either. Don't insta-chk, anyway. If you're going to cbet, make it a 1/2-pot size like you want them to stay in.

2 is a bet for me. Normal cbet. I don't mind if they fold pp's less than mine here because this flop is going to be impossible to go any further with oop. CO nearly always has a low to mid pp here and not an A (calls open and calls rr after open folds.)

[hennnerz]

I go for $9 here

[derosnec]

i think i check the first one and bet 2nd one (draws)

[HasPair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I c-bet in 3-bet pots pretty much 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i think i check the first one and bet 2nd one (draws)

[/ QUOTE ]

[Monster207]

The first one is a check. I don't mind a 1/2 psb either though. The second one you have to c-bet.

[WHITEBOYAEHS]

these spots separate me from competent poker players. i always get the [censored] end of the stick in spots like this /images/graemlins/frown.gif but yeah i think betting out on any of these flops is -ev...i usually just c/c and try to make it to the river alive...

[DennisGPunkt]

If there is one over to my PP i c-bet, with 2 overs i check.

[ICMoney]

I don't like a bet in the first hand.
Say you fire $10. He will call with Kx, Ax but not JJ.
If you check he might bet $10 and you can call if you want.

I think that's about the only way you can get your money in ahead.



For hand 2 - a PSR would be 2.75 and he only made it $2.
Seems pretty weak to me and I wouldn't expect him to have a good ace. Prob a mid pocket/SCs.

I cb hand 2.

[prodonkey]

what Kx is he going to have in hand 1.. KQ? not likely.. KJ? prolly not calling reraise, AK probably reraising.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you've got to c-bet your normal ammount personally. I c-bet in 3-bet pots pretty much 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a leak. I check QQ here op. There are no overcards that hurt you and you are in a wa/wb spot out of position in a bloated pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[hennnerz]

[ QUOTE ]
I go for $9 here

[/ QUOTE ]

And check QQ hand.

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
what Kx is he going to have in hand 1.. KQ? not likely.. KJ? prolly not calling reraise, AK probably reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some guy COLD-CALLED AQo to a 3b the other day.

People don't like to fold.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some better broadway every once in a while.

[whyzze]

i'm thinking much differently than alot of you. Assuming the stats are reliable...which they are not, in terms of AF I would play these hands as follows.


Hand 1: We have very little equity and our hand can stand 0 heat. This is a bad flop for our hand, but at the same time a decent one. Why? Because he cannot play back at us if we bet. This is important against this opponent because he has a very high AF. His range hits that flop just as much as it misses that flop.

scenarios:
check bet call, check check, check shove fold ------horrible he does this with alot of hands after we check 3 times.

check check, check bet call, check check ------best we can hope for if we check, we win this ~ 50% of the time...maybe less.

bet raise fold

bet call, check check, check bet fold - sometimes we will get to showdown, but we always see a better hand.

bet fold


Hand 2: This villian is passive postflop. Only problem is his range is so wide. both the draws are a major part of his range, so is the ace, so is any pp etc. The good thing about this villian is we dont have to worry much about him making us fold the best hand.

i would c/f the flop, c/c the turn, then c/f the river.



Basically in both hands we should be willing to put money in the pot 1 more time, approximately the size of a cbet. The hard part is trying to decifer what way is going to maximize our EV. This means getting to showdown/making him fold as cheaply as possible.

fwiw, I bet the flop in hand 1. If i were to check, i'm never calling a flop bet.


I could be way off on this stuff, but I'm not handing an agressive opponent a spot to bet when I have a hand that cant stand any heat.

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]


Some guy COLD-CALLED AQo to a 3b the other day.

People don't like to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Whats's your play with AQ? Fold?

[Ranma4703]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Some guy COLD-CALLED AQo to a 3b the other day.

People don't like to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Whats's your play with AQ? Fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Without a read, yes. With a read, I could see pushing, but only against people who 3bet too often, and I'm also pushing TT+ against them. But those people are very rare, so that almost never happens. Most people only reraise AK, JJ+, and some don't even reraise AK.

[Peleus]

I cbet both these 100%. I'm interested in reading about check comments on the first hand.

Its not about what we have, its what villain thinks we have. Preflop action could easily represent AK, and by cbetting we are defining our hand, and letting us know where we stand in it. To further action we could easily shut down / fold to a re raise. Any PP set mining, perhaps even something like KQ might lay down here. I could say you'd win from the cbet, which would be our ideal scenario now, would occur 50%+.

If we check and he makes a bet of say $7 I know it would be a tough spot for me personally. Lead out with $9 and see where you stand.

Again second hand is a bad flop for you (overcard Q / J much better) but I'd still lead out for my cbet. Again in peoples minds 3bets are so often AK / AQ, something with that physiological high card A. Leading out makes an easily believable representation of having it. Folds out PP, and perhaps shuts him down if he calls you with a weaker A (say scared AJ) maybe giving you a few free cards to catch up.

Advice on thought process here, or why you disagree with my cbetting hand 1? Thanks.