This Is Why You NEVER Play KQ [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

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Rookcifer

10-19-2007, 04:25 PM

KQ is a worthless hand, especially at a tight table. It almost invariably makes the second best hand when a K or a Q flops. The only value it has is for a flush or two pair, but when you make the flush you often make second best flush, and as far as two pair, you are just as likely to make 2 pair with 7-2 as you are KQ.

I know you will say I overplay it, but just exactly when do you fold KQ if a K flops on a rainbow board with 2 undercards? I have had so many people go all in with K9 or K10, which is why I am reluctant to fold. However, from now on I will fold the hand pre-flop in any position. It is just a hand that will get me in trouble. This goes for both KQ and KQs. KQ is my second most expensive hand, next to AK. I lose the most money with AK and second most with KQ. I am in the green with 40 hands, and in the red with the rest. Is this normal? Should I be in the green with more than 40 hands when I play at about 15% VPIP?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($6.60)
UTG ($9.40)
UTG+1 ($7.85)
Hero ($4.65)
MP2 ($10.65)
MP3 ($6.50)
CO ($10.10)
Button ($12)
SB ($9.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40, 3 folds.

Flop: ($1.35) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $1.1, MP3 calls $1.10, CO folds.

Turn: ($3.55) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3.15 (All-In), MP3 calls $3.15.

River: ($0) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $9.85

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Kh (two pair, kings and fives).
MP3 has Ks Kd (full house, kings full of fives).
Outcome: MP3 wins $9.85. 

hand 2

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($6.65)
Hero ($8.30)
BB ($2.55)
UTG ($3.95)
MP1 ($32)
MP2 ($22.10)
CO ($9.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, CO raises to $0.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.45, BB calls $0.40.

Flop: ($1.50) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets $1.5, Hero raises to $3, BB folds, CO raises to $8.95, Hero calls $4.80 (All-In).

Turn: ($17.10) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($17.10) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $17.10

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qs Ks (one pair, kings).
CO has As Ah (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: CO wins $18.25. 

hand 3

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($3)
BB ($2.55)
UTG ($12.10)
UTG+1 ($6.70)
MP1 ($10.80)
MP2 ($10.20)
Hero ($8)
Button ($3.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 raises to $0.2, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.20, Hero (poster) raises to $0.5, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.40, UTG+1 calls $0.30, MP2 calls $0.30.

Flop: ($2.15) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.9, MP2 folds, Hero calls $0.90, UTG calls $0.90.

Turn: ($4.85) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $1.2, Hero raises to $2.4, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1.20.

River: ($9.65) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $9.65

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Kc Ac (two pair, kings and fives).
Hero has Ks Qd (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $9.65.

PJo336

10-19-2007, 04:27 PM

not ev1 overplays it, its a big winner in my db

Lego05

10-19-2007, 04:31 PM

Reload pre-flop.

First hand is fine.

Second hand sucks:
Mostly either fold or reraise pre-flop. As played your check min-raise on flop is terrible. I think I like check call - I'm rarely in this position since I don't call pre-flop there like ever.

Third hand is real bad:
Fold pre-flop...unless you have some reason for squeezing here...but that's probably very veyr rarely good to do at 10NL.

As played fold to the flop donk....you have nothing and there are players behind you.

As played your turn min-raise sucks....raise bigger.

River is only street played well.

Also...Full Ring Forum:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=FR

Edit: AK and KQ should both be profitable hands over a good sample size.

2nd edit: DIdn't even notice you posted in the CO in hand 3. Don't post. Just wait for your big blind to come around.

C4LL4W4Y

10-19-2007, 04:31 PM

you should fix the title...This Is How You Don't Play KQ. you're sitting with under 50bbs in hand one and you raise it from EP at a full ring table, which in combination is pretty horrendous.

in hand 2 you stack off after getting your minraise b/3b, pretty bad.

and hand 3,you post in the co and try to squeeze a minraiser/caller, not horrible imo. but check fold that flop.

SIT WITH 100 BBs.

this has got to be another level.

Genesis

10-19-2007, 04:32 PM

Hand 1, whatever, you had less than half stack, he slow played you, it happens.

Hand 2, if you c/r the flop you have to fold to the all-in, you're obviously beat.

Hand 3, I hate the 3bet preflop. I wouldn't 3bet without a solid read and if I were to 3bet it would be much bigger. You have nothing on the flop and are not getting odds to draw.

willyc

10-19-2007, 04:35 PM

KQ is in my 15 highest winning hands at 6max. Just don't play it for huge pots with only one pair or without a good read on your opponent and it should serve you well.

wingchunflush

10-19-2007, 04:39 PM

If i am playing kq oop i will re raise occasionally I find out quick if I am up against AK or better

Worm75

10-19-2007, 04:40 PM

Result oriented much??

BTW, other than hand 1, the other 2 were butchered

And why are you buying in short?

buttonpusher

10-19-2007, 04:41 PM

KQ is a winning hand for me. Stop overplaying it maybe?

Dimitzu

10-19-2007, 04:49 PM

First one is perfect.

On the second one I would either fold or reraise pre. The way you played it I would fold to the push after your check-raise.

On the third one I would just call preflop and fold on the flop. Your hand is pretty much worthless at this point.

And I wouldn`t post.

Sniiii

10-19-2007, 04:52 PM

That's why you don't play KQ. Why would I not play one of my highest winning hands? Because you're overplaying it?

gregorio

10-19-2007, 04:53 PM

Didn't work for KK PF, so I'll try again.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2053/1639986395_d9cea2a0d2_o.png

Hail Eris

10-19-2007, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This Is Why You NEVER Play Full Ring

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed?

KQ makes a lot of monies for me. I like it.

Rookcifer

10-19-2007, 05:46 PM

Why doesn't this forum's title specify that it is for 6-max only? It should be "Micro Stakes 6-max."

At any rate, I will never again play KQ; it's a hand that you have to have a perfect read on your opponent to play, and that simply isn't possible on the internet.

The only hands I play are JJ+, AK, and small pockets in position. I will occasionally limp with Ax suited and JTs if I have position. If I play more than this, like KQ or AJ, you often are in a crap shoot when your TP falls, and often out kicked. It's next to impossible to determine whether you are outkicked since so many people at micros will push with a medium kicker like A9.

Now I need to work on AK, as I am way in the red with it as well. Is the rule of thumb to fold AK if you don't hit on the flop, even if you were the pre-flop raiser? I think I lose a lot of money by c-betting with it.

I am not a losing player overall. I run at about 8 ptbb/100. I just have major leaks with hands like AK and KQ that become garbage hands really fast post-flop.

ICMoney

10-19-2007, 06:02 PM

I open KQ in UTG-BTN in 6-max.

For FR - KQ can't make a set and might require a decision on the turn/river.

It's better to just fold everything that's not a pocket or AK.

Sniiii

10-19-2007, 06:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why doesn't this forum's title specify that it is for 6-max only? It should be "Micro Stakes 6-max."

At any rate, I will never again play KQ; it's a hand that you have to have a perfect read on your opponent to play, and that simply isn't possible on the internet.

The only hands I play are JJ+, AK, and small pockets in position. I will occasionally limp with Ax suited and JTs if I have position. If I play more than this, like KQ or AJ, you often are in a crap shoot when your TP falls, and often out kicked. It's next to impossible to determine whether you are outkicked since so many people at micros will push with a medium kicker like A9.

Now I need to work on AK, as I am way in the red with it as well. Is the rule of thumb to fold AK if you don't hit on the flop, even if you were the pre-flop raiser? I think I lose a lot of money by c-betting with it.

I am not a losing player overall. I run at about 8 ptbb/100. I just have major leaks with hands like AK and KQ that become garbage hands really fast post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please discuss this in the fullring. I don't mean to sound offensive, but I doubt the majority of players here find it interesting to discuss leaks in your fullring play.

Win.by.TKo

10-19-2007, 06:13 PM

Hand #1:

Preflop, with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif in EP, I would tend to limp and plan for straight or flush value. It is difficult to play this hand as a pair hand.

The flop bet is right along what I have done. If you are going to play a TPGK, having a SPR of ~3.5 is a good thing.

However, after he called a pot bet, I would be puzzled as to what Villain is calling with. We do not have any stats or history on him (at least, there was none posted). The only thing stated is that the table is tight. If Villian fits the table profile, then I would be disturbed at the flop call, which is stating he does not fear TPTK. Taking his bet at face value, I would put him on a set, TT or KK (I would discount two-pair unless he likes playing my signature hand, TKo).

Hand #2:

I really do not like the flop c/r. I would be more inclined to c/c and see what the turn brings. However, even the call puts you over the commitment threshold (Stack=<3xPot). Are you prepared to play for your stack with TPGK? What are you putting Villain on? The answers to these questions will dictate your play. Your check raise states that you believe you are leading and are willing to bet your stack on it. I'm not confident enough with my hand to c/r, but believe I have enough of a chance of leading to warrant a call.

Hand #3:

I am extremely leary about a EP min-raise at uNL. Most of the time I see strong hands from this spot. Again, I am not inclined to play KQ for pair value. I would tend to play for straight/flush value, only straight value in this case.

Unless I knew Villain to be extremely LAG, I would tend to fold to any bet without at least a SD. This is especially true with players to act behind me. I must admit that playing two overcards is one of my major leaks. I now tend to not continue with them.

The king on the turn is a tease. What did your two Villains play with on the flop. One may have bet w/ a Jack, but I would have to believe one of the two could beat that, probably an overpair and maybe a 5. Despite that, I have problems folding TPGK. My probable play would be to call and play for a showdown. In these situations, I have trouble folding primarily because I do not trust my reads. I do not want to fold what could be the best hand.

By no means am I stating that my ideas are correct. I only state that this is the way I would (probably) play these hands.

kaz2107

10-19-2007, 06:15 PM

just checked... im up 120 or sumtin this month with KQs and KQo. would have a screen shot but my computer is being almost as ghey as mtts

Rookcifer

10-19-2007, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Please discuss this in the fullring. I don't mean to sound offensive, but I doubt the majority of players here find it interesting to discuss leaks in your fullring play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am blind but I don't see "moderator" under your name? Do you have nothing better to do than critique which forum someone posts to, kid?

PJo336

10-19-2007, 06:48 PM

full ring play does majorly differ from 6max, and it does have its own forum for nits who dont like KQ /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Sniiii

10-19-2007, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Please discuss this in the fullring. I don't mean to sound offensive, but I doubt the majority of players here find it interesting to discuss leaks in your fullring play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am blind but I don't see "moderator" under your name? Do you have nothing better to do than critique which forum someone posts to, kid?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do I need to be a moderator to guide an idiot to the fullring forum? Doesn't take much of a brain to figure out which forum to post in when seeing a 'FULL-RING right below the micro-stakes, but you obviously failed, so I thought I'd give you a bit of guidance. Just so the moderators didn't need to spend time on Mr. ''DONT EVOR PLAY KQ!!!!1''

Rookcifer

10-19-2007, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why do I need to be a moderator to guide an idiot to the fullring forum? Doesn't take much of a brain to figure out which forum to post in when seeing a 'FULL-RING right below the micro-stakes, but you obviously failed, so I thought I'd give you a bit of guidance. Just so the moderators didn't need to spend time on Mr. ''DONT EVOR PLAY KQ!!!!1''

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Firstly, when I see micro-stakes I don't see "6-MAX ONLY" anywhere in the title. Does the term "micro stakes" automatically imply 6-max only? Is this some sort of secret poker lingo exclusive only to 2+2? Funny how Stars has FR tables under the "micro stakes" tab. In fact, FR tables comprise the vast majority of tables I see.

Secondly, the FR forum has no particular stakes implied. I find many people posting there who play middle or high stakes and I don't feel like vexing them with my $.10 hands. Moreover, as I hope you know, the strategy and advice given depends greatly on the stakes. Since this forum is exclusively for micros, I found it fit the criteria the best for posting hands from MICRO stakes games. See how that works?

Again, if you want to save yourself from making superfluous posts in the future, perhaps you ought to lobby the mods for a new category of FR forums so that all posts there aren't all lumped into one huge mess from all different stakes. I doubt you will do that since you obviously love interjecting your "corrections" into other people's threads. Certainly you can find better ways to bring attention to yourself?

Now, run along, child. I think mommy just cooked dinner.

PJo336

10-19-2007, 08:01 PM

so much hate in the world today...wheres ama or emc for tha lockkk

Sniiii

10-19-2007, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does the term "micro stakes" automatically imply 6-max only? Is this some sort of secret poker lingo exclusive only to 2+2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
Since this forum is exclusively for micros, I found it fit the criteria the best for posting hands from MICRO stakes games. See how that works?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Surely, the advice and strategies given on Full Ring depends greatly on which stakes you play, but the majority of the fullring posters have at one point or another played micro/small stakes, and will be able to give you advices accordingly. The fullring-play differs greatly from the 6-max, so the advices and strategies you'll be given in the mentioned fullring forum will be much more fitting than the ones posters here can give you.

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly you can find better ways to bring attention to yourself?

Now, run along, child. I think mommy just cooked dinner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny how that comes from a whiny little bitch complaining about losing 3 hands he interprets as 'bad beats', while the fact of the matter is, 2 out of those 3 hands were played very badly.

Ikaika

10-19-2007, 09:08 PM

Just go annoy the full ring forum already, jesus christ.

RedSoxFan

10-20-2007, 03:24 AM

Hand 1- think you played it fine- hard to put him on KK when he cold calls pre flop

Hands 2- might call pfr but unless villain is a donk, I'm not 3betting- no way am I felting this pre flop

Hand 3- Looks fine until turn- good place to keep pot small since you could have the 2nd best kicker.

bazooka87

10-20-2007, 03:33 AM

UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 raises to $0.2, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.20, Hero (poster) raises to $0.5

lolololololol