TKo's Hand of the Day: KK in SB

[Win.by.TKo]

Greetings All...I'm trying something new to help with my poker growth. I will be posting a hand (hopefully) each day regarding a new theme I'm trying to add to my game. I am hoping for some analysis as to which these hands are a good play for a mix from the usual line.

Today's hand is early in my session. Normally I boost this up to 5xBBish. This hand, however, I tried to play it differently.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 ($5)
CO ($0.95)
Button ($3.80)
Hero ($3.65)
BB ($4.20)
UTG ($5.29)
UTG+1 ($1.95)
MP1 ($4.49)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.02, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

This is not what I wanted to see. I had hoped that somebody would do the betting for me, with the intent to call &amp; disguise my hand.

Flop: ($0.06) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.06</font>, BB calls $0.06, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $0.12</font>, Hero calls $0.06, BB calls $0.06.

Here comes a nasty, low monotone flop. I bet the pot, only to get called and raised. Here is decision #1 (and a possible leak): Should I simply fold here or call to see another card. I'm thinking somebody has A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif but am unsure if one actually flopped the flush. Strange things happen at 2NL.

Turn: ($0.42) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets $0.06</font>, Hero folds, BB calls $0.06.

The fourth diamond falls and I'm done with the hand, feeling like I have blown an opportunity with KK. /images/graemlins/frown.gif
Here is how the hand finished up.

River: ($0.54) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets $0.06</font>, BB calls $0.06.

Final Pot: $0.66

I am hopeful that this idea gives me ideas on what alternate lines could be tried here. I will post another hand tomorrow from today's session.

Thank you all for your kind (or not so kind) words and your help in improving my game.

[ShipitFMA]

oh jesus, this seems like a long elaborate level, i never know how to respond to these

[PJo336]

U limped in the sb hoping someone would raise but theres only ONE person behind u that could raise, and he has the oppurtunity to see a free flop with alot of different hands

this is spew, show aggression preflop if you wanna make any money with ur big hands

[Genesis]

There's no reason to get tricky at 2NL.

[Spurious]

probably one of the worst KK hands i've ever seen...

[bozzer]

lol nh

[Win.by.TKo]

Thanks guys. I agree it's not the best play. I also agree that this type of play is not really necessary at 2NL.

Is there a level where such a line is playable as a change-up to the normal raise? Based on PJo336's reply, evidently not.

[Spurious]

You basicly underrep your hand all the way.
Why would you hope for the BB to raise.

Raise from the SB, i dont know if there's any level where you take that line (maybe MSNL+). But if you reach that level you know when you should take it, just dont worry for the moment.

[PJo336]

[ QUOTE ]
probably one of the worst KK hands i've ever seen...

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually agree with this comment the most, as this was worse than open folding KK


Also, I pretty much never limp with big pairs. Raise them up everytime because limp/raising is one of the most transparent moves ever. Your better off raising it just as you do other hands and letting your villians guess

[mr.spam]

shove preflop &gt; complete... really, raise to any amount but don't just limp at these levels &gt;_&lt;

[TS Clark]

There is no reason, EVER, to make this play. At any level. It's one thing to flat call a raise in position with kings. What you did was so bad as to make the Baby Jesus cry.

You want to get value out of your big hands? Raise. There may be a few exceptions, where you want to set up a play against some maniac, but at NL2?

Raise. Raise. Raise. It's Britney, bitches.

[marimba man]

You can't be serious?

[buttonpusher]

at least he didnt fold KK preflop

[Win.by.TKo]

Evidently, my 'hand of the day' is turning into the 'joke of the day.' I believe I received the answer I was looking for, as this poll is making Reagan v. Mondale look like a toss-up.

[CobraGoat]

lol, is this a troll thread?

also, lol at SB completes..."this is not what i wanted to see, was hoping someone would do the betting for me." ummm were you banking on BB raising?

ahhh, this was amusing. nice laydown on turn BTW, a lot of other players would not have been able to let KKs go so easily.

[RockRattler]

meh.. this hand is bad, but it looks like your trying to improve and think about the game which is sooo important.

[PJo336]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, is this a troll thread?

also, lol at SB completes..."this is not what i wanted to see, was hoping someone would do the betting for me." ummm were you banking on BB raising?

ahhh, this was amusing. nice laydown on turn BTW, a lot of other players would not have been able to let KKs go so easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, im eagerly awaiting tomorrows installment from OP

[bored]

Fold preflop.

[You're No Daisy]

[ QUOTE ]
probably one of the worst KK hands i've ever seen...

[/ QUOTE ]
What he said.

[kroeliewoelie]

I have regretted almost every slowplay I ever tried in a cash game, I think you also need to learn the hard way.

[SunyD]

Win.by.TKo - it's okay to experiment and try different things, but I hope you have learned it is never correct to slow play in this situation (especially at the micro's).

Changing up your play is necessary... getting fancy isnt.

[bored]

[ QUOTE ]

Changing up your play is necessary

[/ QUOTE ]

False IMO

[SunyD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Changing up your play is necessary

[/ QUOTE ]
False IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain. Maybe "necessary" wasnt the best word, but if you play in cash games with some regular people frequently.. I hope you would be mixing it up a little.

[bored]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Changing up your play is necessary

[/ QUOTE ]
False IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain. Maybe "necessary" wasnt the best word, but if you play in cash games with some regular people frequently.. I hope you would be mixing it up a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to bed right now, but here is the gist.

In uNL there are pretty much two types of players: donks who don't pay attention to your "changing it up" b/c they aren't observant and multitablers who are too busy multitabling to notice your "changing it up".

And anyway, changing up your play isn't something you do for its own sake (which is what people seem to think when they say that "changing up your play is necessary) as in "I'll limp KK pf to change it up"; it is something you do when adjusting to table conditions "The guy to the right of me has shoved the last 5 hands and everyone has folded; I'll limp/call him".

So pretty much changing up your play for the sake of changing up your play is pointless, but adjusting to conditions is vital.

I guess I don't play with the same people regularly, unless they are fishies whose money I am taking.

[Sniiii]

I believe what was needed to be said has already been posted by others here. Never play Kings this way. Ever.

[21SuicideKing21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Changing up your play is necessary

[/ QUOTE ]
False IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain. Maybe "necessary" wasnt the best word, but if you play in cash games with some regular people frequently.. I hope you would be mixing it up a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to bed right now, but here is the gist.

In uNL there are pretty much two types of players: donks who don't pay attention to your "changing it up" b/c they aren't observant and multitablers who are too busy multitabling to notice your "changing it up".

And anyway, changing up your play isn't something you do for its own sake (which is what people seem to think when they say that "changing up your play is necessary) as in "I'll limp KK pf to change it up"; it is something you do when adjusting to table conditions "The guy to the right of me has shoved the last 5 hands and everyone has folded; I'll limp/call him".

So pretty much changing up your play for the sake of changing up your play is pointless, but adjusting to conditions is vital.

I guess I don't play with the same people regularly, unless they are fishies whose money I am taking.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, IMO when you reach 100nl is when you need to start mixing your game up, not at these levels where I'm going on a wild guess here and say that over 95% of the people don't have a clue on what they are doing.

[wems]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Changing up your play is necessary

[/ QUOTE ]
False IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain. Maybe "necessary" wasnt the best word, but if you play in cash games with some regular people frequently.. I hope you would be mixing it up a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to bed right now, but here is the gist.

In uNL there are pretty much two types of players: donks who don't pay attention to your "changing it up" b/c they aren't observant and multitablers who are too busy multitabling to notice your "changing it up".

And anyway, changing up your play isn't something you do for its own sake (which is what people seem to think when they say that "changing up your play is necessary) as in "I'll limp KK pf to change it up"; it is something you do when adjusting to table conditions "The guy to the right of me has shoved the last 5 hands and everyone has folded; I'll limp/call him".

So pretty much changing up your play for the sake of changing up your play is pointless, but adjusting to conditions is vital.

I guess I don't play with the same people regularly, unless they are fishies whose money I am taking.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, IMO when you reach 100nl is when you need to start mixing your game up, not at these levels where I'm going on a wild guess here and say that over 95% of the people don't have a clue on what they are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

But NEVER at 100NL should you complete in the BB with KK, honestly I dont think you should ever call with KK preflop, unless its already been a 3bet pot, then call hopin your opponent will bluff the flop....
and NL2 holy [censored] ive played that and ive raised like $.70 preflop and had like 3 callers behind me... i promise you with KK they are not going to fold and their is NO reason to misplay your hand.

[ICMoney]

At this level you could prob open shove and get called by KQo.

100bb+ you don't want everyone limping.

You will have no idea if someone hits a funky two pair.

In addition, the pot is so small, people are less committed and it will be harder to stack a TP kind of hand without a massive overbet later.

People at 2nl probably aren't raising limpers with trash anyways.

If you got raised were you going to flat again or limp-raise?

At this level limp raising with premiums is probably rampant anyways and they might figure out what you are up to.

[C4LL4W4Y]

obvious level

[SDone]

This has got to be a level.

[Win.by.TKo]

Thanks to all for responding.

It was probably too early in the session for a solid evaluation, but I was attacking UTG+1, who had been playing fast in the few hands played so far. I had planned to repop it after the raise.

There are a few players I see frequently, most of which are 4-tabling. I see a couple that table up to 12 at a time. I have to imagine these players have my stats and have made decisions based on my numbers.

My main purpose here is to discover a proper VPIP/PFR/AF while learning ideas for situation-specific play. I would like to practice utilizing REM &amp; SPR from PNLHEv1.

Unfortunately, my bankroll is &gt;$150 at the moment. At what level, considering my bankroll, would be best for my overall objectives?

FYI, My overall stats are 27/15/2.18/3,391 -11bb/100 at 2NL. My most recent daily stats were:

10/19/07: 23/12/1.77/172 +53bb/100
10/18/07: 28/12/1.71/322 -30bb/100
10/17/07: 25/15/1.60/20 +146bb/100

I cannot thank all of you enough for your comments.