Video: Joe Tall vs DeathDonkey 2/4 HU with Holecard Camera! [Archive]

View Full Version : Video: Joe Tall vs DeathDonkey 2/4 HU with Holecard Camera!

DeucesCracked

10-18-2007, 05:30 AM

<html>
<head>

<body>

<h3>Joe Tall vs DeathDonkey HU with Holecard Camera!</h3>

Watch as DeathDonkey and Joe Tall play HUHU for an hour. Joe Tall does the audio commentary and you can see DeathDonkey's cards thanks to our unique hole card camera.

Any questions about the hands they played, the video, the site, or suggestions about our videos, post them here. We encourage feedback and discussion about our videos, so we put it here for everyone to check out for free. Enjoy!

<embed src="http://www.deucescracked.com/flash_videos/flvplayer.swf" width="640" height="480" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"
flashvars="file=http://s3.amazonaws.com/twoplustwo/Joe_Tall_vs_DD_HU.flv&displayheight=480&image=http ://s3.amazonaws.com/twoplustwo/dc.png&autostart=false" />

Like what you see? Click here to sign up for an free account (http://www.deucescracked.com/?ref=2p2) and a chance to win a 6-month membership free!
</body>
</html>

dying2win

10-18-2007, 08:09 PM

i just wacthed like 3/4 of it and really liked it.

i usually find limit holdem really boring but this was quite fun.

i found it amazing how well you put him on hands as well, good job

Joe Tall

10-18-2007, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i just wacthed like 3/4 of it and really liked it.

i usually find limit holdem really boring but this was quite fun.

i found it amazing how well you put him on hands as well, good job

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much, glad you enjoyed it, more to come!

I have to say one thing, I've been talking poker with DeathDonkey a long time. This is what him and I do all day actually and is how we started DeucesCracked along with Entity. So, that being said, I know DD as well as anyone! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

GuyOnTilt

10-18-2007, 08:31 PM

Good call Joe:

"I think I just decided that I'm gonna play him super aggressive out of the blinds."

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Entity

10-18-2007, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good call Joe:

"I think I just decided that I'm gonna play him super aggressive out of the blinds."

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard that's the key to success in HULHE.

Joe Tall

10-19-2007, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good call Joe:

"I think I just decided that I'm gonna play him super aggressive out of the blinds."

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard that's the key to success in HULHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be for some opponents. But I took 19k off CrazyMike (MrGatorade) playing 1/2 live HU by being passive out of the blinds and then f-king with him the rest of the match. The second hand we played I flopped top pair, check-called, turn check-check, river check-call, he shows some rivered pair and I show Top-flopped as CrazyMike loses his MIND, starts yelling "WTF! Check-call every street with top!!?! WTF IS THAT!?!" At that point, I knew the match was over. I call it my Tommy-Tall method. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bobo Fett

10-19-2007, 02:07 PM

You must be with Dean on his bot list now...

Entity

10-19-2007, 02:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good call Joe:

"I think I just decided that I'm gonna play him super aggressive out of the blinds."

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard that's the key to success in HULHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be for some opponents. But I took 19k off CrazyMike (MrGatorade) playing 1/2 live HU by being passive out of the blinds and then f-king with him the rest of the match. The second hand we played I flopped top pair, check-called, turn check-check, river check-call, he shows some rivered pair and I show Top-flopped as CrazyMike loses his MIND, starts yelling "WTF! Check-call every street with top!!?! WTF IS THAT!?!" At that point, I knew the match was over. I call it my Tommy-Tall method. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing makes a bad joke worse than explaining it. Heh. In HULHE, though, you're always in the blinds. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Joe Tall

10-19-2007, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good call Joe:

"I think I just decided that I'm gonna play him super aggressive out of the blinds."

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard that's the key to success in HULHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be for some opponents. But I took 19k off CrazyMike (MrGatorade) playing 1/2 live HU by being passive out of the blinds and then f-king with him the rest of the match. The second hand we played I flopped top pair, check-called, turn check-check, river check-call, he shows some rivered pair and I show Top-flopped as CrazyMike loses his MIND, starts yelling "WTF! Check-call every street with top!!?! WTF IS THAT!?!" At that point, I knew the match was over. I call it my Tommy-Tall method. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing makes a bad joke worse than explaining it. Heh. In HULHE, though, you're always in the blinds. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This actually shows how I've erased the small blind from my memory in HULHE, it's like it's not even there for me...heh!

Tommy Angelo

10-19-2007, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Enjoy!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am! Seeing all the hole cards is a riot. In bridge they call that "double dummy." Read into that what you will! lol

Tommy

MickeyWins

10-20-2007, 02:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Enjoy!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am! Seeing all the hole cards is a riot. In bridge they call that "double dummy." Read into that what you will! lol

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr Angelo....
Could you be talked into doing a guest video on Dueces..??
or article....or any damn thing you want....even bridge...

well would/could ya?

NNNNOOOOONAN

10-20-2007, 03:27 AM

highlights:

1. "queen hi is definitely the nuts on this bode...........nope."

2. both players losing and expecting people to buy coaching from them.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

actually guys that was one of the best videos i've ever seen. awesome description of thought processes or whatever.

i'm not much of a sucker for buying what i see on commercials, but you might actually have gotten a new customer out of me, just with this video.

*i just wanted to say that that sounded kind of cheesy, and i want to inform everyone that i have never talked to either of these players and have no stake in and cracked deuces or their subsidiaries.

iplayscared

10-20-2007, 03:55 AM

wtf are those cards on the bottom left?

nvm

edit: how do you know what his cards were every hand...

inferno

10-20-2007, 08:09 AM

Joe, what is your policy on 3betting the flop w/middle pair. I have seen you doing that allot.

Also how can anyone ever beat you when you read those hands so well?

ps.check your mail /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Joe Tall

10-20-2007, 08:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wtf are those cards on the bottom left?

nvm

edit: how do you know what his cards were every hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

What you see is post-production using our Hole Card Camera technology. We have several videos using the Hold Card Camera including a "DeucesCracked Home Game" where you can see all the cards in a full ring game, just like the WPT.

Garland

10-21-2007, 05:11 PM

Great video! I’ve played limit heads up online a couple of years ago, and have a different perspective of it nowadays. Now I only get the chance live when a game breaks down and the opponent gets stubborn and wants to play me 1 on 1. Great analysis by JoeTall. It would be interesting to have a parallel video from DeathDonkey’s perspective. I have some notes with times for reference. Obviously I get to see both hole cards, so I may be biased, but take this as it is.

Notes: [DD = DeathDonkey, Joe = JoeTall (not to get confused with JT and Jack-Ten, heh) ]

Interesting that DD was playing ATC style (did he ever fold pre-flop? Note: yes three times - 32o twice and 42o once), while Joe had periods switching back and forth between playing ATC and folding some hands pre. Not saying it’s right or wrong, just interesting.

1:30 - Marginal flop peel by DD with JTs on 53K flop with backdoor spade draw to a Joe check-raise. Standard?

11:20 - Surprising cap by DD OOP with 75 on 3J4 with just a gutshot vs Joe’s J6. Seems Joe is looking up anything after his flop 3-bet.

11:37 - Didn’t understand why you didn’t like flop call with 94 on 3T9 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and thought the turn was a definite bet. Overcards, gutshots and flush draws get free shots with turn check.

16:40 - Marginal peel by DD with K7 on 29A flop facing a check-raise, but this time with a backdoor nut flush draw.

19:20 - Nice read by DD to check-raise turn with just a 7 reading right through Joe’s flop check “knowing” he didn’t turn an A.

24:10 - Surprised DD didn’t play K/images/graemlins/club.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif more hard on flop with A/images/graemlins/heart.gifA/images/graemlins/club.gifJ/images/graemlins/club.gif flop. Thought it might be worthy of a flop raise at least, and a potential cap. Hides the times you actually have an A and play that hard as well.

27:20 - Given previous action, Joe made a very questionable river value bet with J6 on K36 7 Q board after DD checked river with K7. I was going to say DD played it badly by checking the river, but then Joe played it even worse by betting it! Good fold by Joe in the end though.

33:40 - AJo not 4-betting preflop in position. I think it’s ok as a change-up, but it is a standard 4-bet.

45:00 – Don’t mind the turn check-raise attempt. Didn’t like the river check with AA by Joe. I thought that was a clear value bet. I guess he thought he was inducing DD to bluff the river.

50:25 - Surprised by DD check-raise river with QQ and pay off 3-bet on Joe’s trips. I thought he was playing it safe on the turn, by check-calling turn and river. Since Joe was possibly representing a draw on the flop and turn, I thought a turn check-raise was the more appropriate street to charge the potential draws. Calling river 3-bet was definitely marginal as I hadn’t seen a big street 3-bet bluff yet by either player.

52:00 - Didn’t like DD’s check on turn when he gets 2 pair with Q6 giving a free card after DD check-raised the flop. Value bet, value bet. Joe is looking you up light, but not betting the turn on a pure bluff as far as I recall, and may be prone to folding a small pair on the turn to the check-raise.

56:30 - DD another marginal flop peel with 97o with Q26 board after Joe 3-bet DD’s pre-flop raise. Did pick up a marginal backdoor diamond draw on turn.

Otherwise, well-played by both participants. Came away with some things to learn there on the rare occasion I play live and the game breaks down to two. Too bad they don’t let you straddle on the button like brick and mortar, huh?

$54 won by Full Tilt (before rakeback). Game selection, guys /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Garland

Joe Tall

10-23-2007, 06:10 AM

Garland,

When you are saying "you" I assume you are talking about DD?

[ QUOTE ]
27:20 - Given previous action, Joe made a very questionable river value bet with J6 on K36 7 Q board after DD checked river with K7. I was going to say DD played it badly by checking the river, but then Joe played it even worse by betting it! Good fold by Joe in the end though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are being results oriented here, I feel. You'd be surprised on how often DD has a 3 or a lesser 6.

Garland

10-23-2007, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Garland,

When you are saying "you" I assume you are talking about DD?

[ QUOTE ]
27:20 - Given previous action, Joe made a very questionable river value bet with J6 on K36 7 Q board after DD checked river with K7. I was going to say DD played it badly by checking the river, but then Joe played it even worse by betting it! Good fold by Joe in the end though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are being results oriented here, I feel. You'd be surprised on how often DD has a 3 or a lesser 6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Joe,

Obviously I could be biased as prefaced before critiquing seeing both sets of hole cards, but I don't feel I'm results oriented here. I fail to see the "you" ambiguity in the quoted segment. I referenced both Joe and DD in that entire segment. Maybe you're talking about another hand that you forgot to include.

Let’s replay the hand in question:

You’re on button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif and open. DD defends with 7/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (he could have anything except real utter trash like 32o or 42o). Flop comes K/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. DD check, Joe bets, DD check-raise, Joe 3-bet, DD just calls. Ok I’ll buy that you can be ahead at this point.

Turn comes 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. DD checks, Joes bets, DD check-raises again! Now at this point I would have to put DD on either (a) a monster [keeping in mind that top pair is still a monster heads up] or (b) a semi-bluff of [I’m stretching here, diamonds?], but it’s kind of a bad bluff spot because of the action you’ve given because after you 3-bet the flop, you tend to get to showdown. In addition, he’s more likely to semi-bluff in position than out of position giving more weight to a strong made hand. If DD had a lesser hand like 3 or 6 weak kicker, he’s more likely to check-call you down especially out of position. Given all this, you should believe you’re behind when the turn check-raise comes back to you. Calling the turn check-raise in itself was somewhat marginal not only because you’re given 8:1 on a 5 out proposition (which is only slightly taking the worst of it), but also because DD represented the K on the flop, and now on the turn there’s a very real non-zero possibility of 2 pair including the K killing 3 of your outs with bad reverse implied odds if you catch two pair and then the line certainly goes bet/3-bet by DD and you pay off.

Well, now you called the turn check-raise. And if I do, it’s with the intent of folding to a river bet unimproved. River: Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. When DD checks the river, I’m really happy to see the showdown. I strongly suspect DD is either trapping or giving up on his bluff and turbo-mucking to a bet and there is no pay-off. But you just had to bet it, huh? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Whew, a lot of analysis for one hand, but do you see where I’m coming from? Yes, I can see his K7, but even without it, DD has taken such a strong line here that given he hasn’t been out of line OOP in big bet streets, I’d give him respect and fold to the turn check-raise.

Garland

Garland

10-23-2007, 05:50 PM

I also just realized that DD was going for the trifecta, but it's always been my belief that it's a tainted trophy to acquire. For if you're actually successful check-raising 3 times, you're probably missing bets somewhere.

Garland

geo8o2

10-25-2007, 06:44 AM

can u please explain ur thinking when u had J6 and u thought J high was good?

DeathDonkey

10-26-2007, 08:48 AM

Hey Garland...ok long post coming:

Joe comments many times that I peel the flop light, but I don't think that is much of a negative. First off, he is CRing me with a pretty wide range, often having second and third pair, so against that range my two "overcards" to second pair are often in reasonable shape. Second, it gives me the opportunity to take advantage of scary turn and river cards from time to time and steal some pots. Third, being viewed as a "light peeler" forces a reasonable opponent to CR me with a more narrow range on the flop (big win for me!) and may lead to them playing a bit weak tight against me, for fear that innocuous turn/river cards help me and just the whole "its tough to put him on a hand" feeling.

Flop cap with 75 was a little bit optimistic, but it was very early in the match and I often do things early in a match as "feelers" to see how my opponent reacts and with what cards. I felt there was a decent chance I had 10 outs here and maybe some fold equity on certain cards.

I think I played the KT clubs hand really really well. Joe wasn't 3 betting a wide range from the BB, so that flop was pretty terrifying, as he pretty much has a showdownable hand or a monster unless he has exactly KQ, which still probably gets to the river. I also thought by just calling the flop I would get excess action from Ax if I hit my draw because he would put me on a worse ace if I raise turn, and I get around the same from his pocket pairs because he probably just goes into call down mode regardless of when I raise.

K7 trifecta hand I'll come to last because there was another post by you and Joe about it with more info/thoughts...

I don't think AJo is a standard 4 bet hand preflop at all, against the range Joe was 3 betting me with. Also its good to have a decent ace in your range there so that you get some action on the ace high flops.

The QQ hand - ok this was the worst hand I played IMO. I actually don't mind my river CR, it looks super fishy and he calls me with any pair, though he definitely has trips a lot. For some reason at the time I felt he wouldn't 3 bet me with trips on the river (SpicyF theorem at work I guess) and then when he did I spite paid it off. My call there is terrible.

K7 trifecta hand I think I played this hand very reasonably, I wasn't just going for a trifecta. I gave his flop 3 bet a lot of respect at this point in the match so I was probably just going to call down until I improved on the turn. The CR on flop and turn both seem obvious to me. Then the river card came down and at this point that was a complete brick in my mind, unless he had KQ in which case I was about to get owned, but whatever. Remember I'm putting Joe on pretty much a good King at this point. If I bet, he certainly just calls, after just calling my turn raise. If I check, there is no way he checks behind, my hand looks like a semibluff or marginal hand that was out of line on the turn. I think the fact that he value bet a 6 here is good evidence that he would value bet a king quickly, and I don't think he would have been able to get off the king even when I CR river. Maybe he would but I still get the 1 BB. I don't see much downside to my line here.

-DeathDonkey

2muchneon

10-26-2007, 10:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Great video! I’ve played limit heads up online a couple of years ago, and have a different perspective of it nowadays. Now I only get the chance live when a game breaks down and the opponent gets stubborn and wants to play me 1 on 1. Great analysis by JoeTall. It would be interesting to have a parallel video from DeathDonkey’s perspective. I have some notes with times for reference. Obviously I get to see both hole cards, so I may be biased, but take this as it is.

Notes: [DD = DeathDonkey, Joe = JoeTall (not to get confused with JT and Jack-Ten, heh) ]

Interesting that DD was playing ATC style (did he ever fold pre-flop? Note: yes three times - 32o twice and 42o once), while Joe had periods switching back and forth between playing ATC and folding some hands pre. Not saying it’s right or wrong, just interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Watching people play is usually pretty boring but I watched a few minutes of this. It's much better if you can see both sets of cards.

It's like: "NOOOOO, don't fold!!"

Folding 42o before the flop? Nice to know someone has standards.

2muchneon

10-26-2007, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]

K7 trifecta hand I think I played this hand very reasonably, I wasn't just going for a trifecta. I gave his flop 3 bet a lot of respect at this point in the match so I was probably just going to call down until I improved on the turn. The CR on flop and turn both seem obvious to me. Then the river card came down and at this point that was a complete brick in my mind, unless he had KQ in which case I was about to get owned, but whatever. Remember I'm putting Joe on pretty much a good King at this point. If I bet, he certainly just calls, after just calling my turn raise. If I check, there is no way he checks behind, my hand looks like a semibluff or marginal hand that was out of line on the turn. I think the fact that he value bet a 6 here is good evidence that he would value bet a king quickly, and I don't think he would have been able to get off the king even when I CR river. Maybe he would but I still get the 1 BB. I don't see much downside to my line here.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Also don't underestimate the psychological effects of pulling off a sucessful trifecta! Against some opponents they will start playing more tentatively and others might
just go on tilt!!

DeathDonkey

10-27-2007, 12:31 AM

Hey neon,

If you get bored and watch more of it I'd value your feedback on my play - you're pretty well regarded as a HU beast /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

Garland

10-27-2007, 11:24 PM

Hi DeathDonkey,

Long post coming back at you:

Warning: I’m going to be me making a lot of comments that might make you say “But you see his hole cards." That is very true. I’m gonna comment anyways. So here’s my very detailed rebuttal.

[ QUOTE ]
First off, he is CRing me with a pretty wide range, often having second and third pair, so against that range my two "overcards" to second pair are often in reasonable shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

False. I don’t know your guys’ history before this video, but your thinking is way off on this particular session. Some simple statistics on what Joe’s flop action OOP means. In the almost hour video:

(a) Joe flop check-raised you exactly four times.
In 3 of the 4 cases, he had top pair or better. Only in one case did he have worse than top pair and that was T7 on a 873 board. Translation: Respect his flop check-raise.

(b) Here’s what Joe’s flop donk means: 5 2nd pair, 2 bottom pair, 1 top pair, one flopped straight and 1 king high.

(c) Here’s what Joe’s flop check call means: 2 2nd pair, 2 bottom pair, 4 top pair, 1 straight draw and 1 air.

Yes, I get to see hole cards, but you could have inferred this from the frequency that he check-raised the flop. However, that “he is CRing me with a pretty wide range, often having second and third pair” statement absolutely does apply to your flop check-raise playing style.

I kind of figured you were doing that "turn the top card into a deuce" deal playing heads up. I just thought you were overdoing it. I also think they were wrong spots to peel for scare cards which I’ll get to soon. I don't do it at all (probably because when my live opponents do it to me heads up/3-handed, they always have top pair).

[ QUOTE ]
Second, it gives me the opportunity to take advantage of scary turn and river cards from time to time and steal some pots

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are the times I felt you made "marginal" peels along with what Joe actually had:

(1) JTs on 53K r (Joe had K5 and c/r)
(2) K7 on 29A (2 diamonds, you have K) (Joe had A3 and c/r)
(3) 97 on Q26 (2 diamonds, you have 7) (Joe had KQ and c/r)

Note: Joe has top pair or two pair each time he check-raised you here. I think you’re confusing your own play from Joes. You actually do check-raise with bottom/middle pair along with air and draws. So it’s Joe that actually owns the right to peel with two “overs” to 2nd pair as he did at 33:10 when you check-raised A64r when you held 58o and Joe held K9o and you check-raised out of position. You might want to adjust your read on Joe. He’s not getting out-of-line like you are.

In regards to taking advantage of scary turn and river cards, peeling in your 3 examples above doesn’t offer a ton of opportunities to shop for a scary turn/river because on those examples the flop was disjointed and in one case, rainbow. This would be far different than if the flop were 679 or something monotone for example. These kind of flops offers chances to make a play at Joe given the right turn or river card regardless of what two cards you hold.

I think calling the c/r in at least 2 of those three situations above is just throwing away money.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I played the KT clubs hand really really well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously the flop could have helped him too, that’s true. I’m just a big fan of semi-bluffing. He could release a small pair right away. He might check to you on the turn and give you a free card. Given his playing style, he probably won't make a 3-bet play back at you unless he specifically holds an A.

Did you consider raising the turn? I could tell by the pause on the flop and also a slight one on the turn that you were probably considering it.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think AJo is a standard 4 bet hand preflop at all, against the range Joe was 3 betting me with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you’re giving Joe too much credit. Here are the hands Joe was 3-betting you with pre-flop:

AA, KK, TT, 99, AK, AQo twice, AJo, A9o, A8o twice, A6s, KQo, QJ twice.

Again, I see the cards, but you can infer this from frequency and showdowns. Your AJ with position is solid against his range and should be capped. Joe might be tight, but he’s not a statue. He knows how to 3-bet against your range, and you should respond with a 4-bet. Let’s put it this way: If AJo isn’t worth a 4-bet against Joe’s 3-bet OOP, then Joe is not 3-betting enough. This is certainly not the case.

[ QUOTE ]
The QQ hand - ok this was the worst hand I played IMO. I actually don't mind my river CR,

[/ QUOTE ]

My point was, if you’re check-raising the river, why aren’t you check-raising the turn?

[ QUOTE ]
K7 trifecta hand… Remember I'm putting Joe on pretty much a good King at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I kind of figured you had to figure that Joe “had” to have a K by calling the turn check-raise. If I played the J6 hand and actually got to the river, I’m the type of guy who will never get “trifecta”ed because (a) I won’t give my opponent that pleasure because I’m never betting the river (b) If I did actually did have a hand, I probably would have given more action in previous streets.

All in all, I hated Joe’s turn call of the check-raise, and I hated the river value bet by Joe even more. And given your read of the situation, I don’t hate your river check-raise.

More Notes:

15:20 – Bad payoff by DD on river check-raise to Joe with 36o on 243 8 (turn) 2 (river).

31:20 – After DD gets out of line with 9Ts 3-betting OOP and Joe capping AJo, that’s quite the ambitious turn call with the board 525 4 with no flush draw.

38:30 – Joe has J9 and DD has 25o After Joe just check-calls 9 2 4r flop and donks a J turn, DD raises with bottom pair and makes a very, very questionable call of Joe’s 3-bet.

Upon 2nd viewing, I did find other hands DD folded pre-flop. 5 times total:
32o twice, 42o once, J2o once, 92o once. Glad to see you have standards /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Garland

Joe Tall

10-28-2007, 01:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
can u please explain ur thinking when u had J6 and u thought J high was good?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had to find the hand, I kept trying to watch the video and was unable to find it but it's just after 21mins for those who want to see it.

He checked through twice recently with TP and this time the flop comes down A54 and checks through and you can hear in my voice that I find this very strange, "There he goes again with a check through". Given the previous hands played and the momentum shift in his favor, his check through means he has air when I check again and he bets when a 2 hits. This means I have to dodge two cards in his range, a K or Q, my Jack high beats his wide range and I picked up a gut-shot, plus my pair outs could be good, so I say, "jack high could be good." (which means, my gutter, J or 6 on the river would be better) and I call.

Joe Tall

10-28-2007, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I kind of figured you were doing that "turn the top card into a deuce" deal playing heads up. I just thought you were overdoing it

[/ QUOTE ]

DD peels a a lot of flops, yes. But I'm not sure if he thinks this way at all. He too experienced and balanced in his play.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't think AJo is a standard 4 bet hand preflop at all, against the range Joe was 3 betting me with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you’re giving Joe too much credit. Here are the hands Joe was 3-betting you with pre-flop:

AA, KK, TT, 99, AK, AQo twice, AJo, A9o, A8o twice, A6s, KQo, QJ twice.

Again, I see the cards, but you can infer this from frequency and showdowns. Your AJ with position is solid against his range and should be capped. Joe might be tight, but he’s not a statue. He knows how to 3-bet against your range, and you should respond with a 4-bet. Let’s put it this way: If AJo isn’t worth a 4-bet against Joe’s 3-bet OOP, then Joe is not 3-betting enough. This is certainly not the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

His non-cap is fine. He doesnt have a huge hand vs my range, likely 50/50 with the actual range you have listed here. He maybe able to play a monster (like KK) the same way to keep me off balance further on, I also know that he is capable of that and he knows I know he is capable of that. This is not 1st-level-blackjack-poker where "AJo is always a cap."

ADDED: This also adds balance to his standard raise, as just calling could make 83s=AJo, that's huge.

Garland

10-28-2007, 02:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
His non-cap is fine. He doesnt have a huge hand vs my range, likely 50/50 with the actual range you have listed here. He maybe able to play a monster (like KK) the same way to keep me off balance further on, I also know that he is capable of that and he knows I know he is capable of that. This is not 1st-level-blackjack-poker where "AJo is always a cap."

ADDED: This also adds balance to his standard raise, as just calling could make 83s=AJo, that's huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember our discussion about the things we argue the most often mattering the least? I think this could be one of those times.

It's not as clear cut as DD vastly overestimating your flop check-raising range. I never quite understood why so many players think the opponent is playing like themselves. You guys are so different.

Congrats to the Red Sox by the way. I just wish the Rockies could make it somewhat entertaining.

Garland

jessicaalbiel

11-11-2007, 02:50 AM

lol at the rake, nice vid though

WillyT

11-15-2007, 03:04 PM

DeathDonkey,

What do you think of Joe's play?

Joe,

What do you think of DD's play? Also, did you tighten up a lot because of the huge rake at 2/4 or is this a decent representation of your HU game?

Cheers guys,

Bill

Joe Tall

11-15-2007, 03:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Joe,

What do you think of DD's play? Also, did you tighten up a lot because of the huge rake at 2/4 or is this a decent representation of your HU game?

Cheers guys,

Bill

[/ QUOTE ]

DD is a maniac, obv, but I can work w/my passive/aggressive style within his over-aggro to pull ahead in the long run, IMO. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

My HU game adjusts to the opponent but you make a valid point, you can see that we get clobbered at this limit by the rake.

DeathDonkey

11-15-2007, 04:32 PM

Hey Willy,

I think this matchup shows why HU limit is really intriguing. We have very different styles but both are winning HU limit players. Joe really is that tight! I probably should have tightened up a little due to rake concerns but felt he was too tight and I could almost profitably raise blind on the button (since I'm raising like 75% anyway).

I definitely do not think I could beat Joe longterm at any rake level below maybe 10/20. That said, I think I can beat anyone I sit with /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

WillyT

11-15-2007, 08:37 PM

Thanks for the responses guys.

I play a lot of HU and just kept wondering why you weren't attacking him more DD. If I were playing against a guy that was playing Joe's style I'd have been c/r'ing lots of flops with air.

I'm sure Joe would have adjusted to me but when I see guys that tight I feel quite fine pushing them out of that tight zone. Joe reads hands really well as evidenced throughout the video but I wonder how he'd do at reading hands if your hand range exploded...and it doesn't really take a lot to make your range 'seem to get really wide'.

Joe, you made a comment or two during the video about there being no reason to get out of line on paired boards and mb on another board too. This I definitely disagree with. If you're not playing back with absolute air at least some of the time you're going to have a tough time with a decent opponent who is doing so. It's just the maths of the game. You won't flop a pair or a draw often enough to get by with this unless you can straight up value town the hell out of your opponent when you do hit something. There's plenty of money on the HU table attacking your opponent without a showdownable hand since he'll not have a showdownable hand so often.

You guys are both smart players and I appreciate you posting the video. I really enjoyed it.

Cheers,
Bill

WillyT

11-15-2007, 09:26 PM

By the way guys, I make my comments about Joe's style hoping to learn something.

I just went over to the site and watched Joe's 30/60 6max sample video and am impressed at how different his style is.

Joe, are you super nitty about game selection? Do you know what your stats are? I'm really curious about what I perceive as your tightness now.

Cheers,
Bill

p.s. It'd be nice if I could get some RB deal on your site but I already have RB at most of the sites listed and I'm in the U.S.

ElGuapo23

11-17-2007, 04:49 AM

"I'm going to lightly value bet this rive...I just got owned."

lol

Joe Tall

11-17-2007, 05:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"I'm going to lightly value bet this rive...I just got owned."

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens to the best of us! /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif