Who does the UIGEA really hurt?

[PPAdc]

I wanted to share with the forum a You Tube post from a PPA Member who resides in Indiana. He is unable to attend the Washington "Fly-In" but was compelled to tell his poker story. As you will see, it is passionate, sincere and quite honestly, very moving. Unfortunately, Congress has overlooked people with special circumstances in its rush to block Internet access to content they deem to be objectionable. Consenting adults who wish to engage in a game of skill on the Internet have every right to do so, and with our combined efforts (the PPA and its members) Congress with act soon to remedy the UIGEA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUIGCkf66k

Please note, that the PPA has contacted Chris Young and received his approval to disseminate.

[KEW]

Very moving and compelling video..."UglyOwl" also has a very good "human interest" story oo how "internet" poker helped in his fight for life with cancer..Both of these may be useful during the "Fly-in"..

Do not like the subject title tho..If I did not look at "poster" I would not even have opened the thread...

[Uglyowl]

I resent my story via PM to John that I sent another group looking for "feel good" stories relating to poker.

[permafrost]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to share with the forum a You Tube post from a PPA Member who resides in Indiana. He is unable to attend the Washington "Fly-In" but was compelled to tell his poker story. As you will see, it is passionate, sincere and quite honestly, very moving. Unfortunately, Congress has overlooked people with special circumstances in its rush to block Internet access to content they deem to be objectionable. Consenting adults who wish to engage in a game of skill on the Internet have every right to do so, and with our combined efforts (the PPA and its members) Congress with act soon to remedy the UIGEA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUIGCkf66k

Please note, that the PPA has contacted Chris Young and received his approval to disseminate.

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If Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as lawful for resident adults, then why does anyone think Congress or UIGEA is trying to "block" that commerce, especially when Congress/UIGEA admitted it was fine?

If instead, Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as illegal, then why does anyone think Congress is the place to change Indiana law?

[TheEngineer]

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I wanted to share with the forum a You Tube post from a PPA Member who resides in Indiana. He is unable to attend the Washington "Fly-In" but was compelled to tell his poker story. As you will see, it is passionate, sincere and quite honestly, very moving. Unfortunately, Congress has overlooked people with special circumstances in its rush to block Internet access to content they deem to be objectionable. Consenting adults who wish to engage in a game of skill on the Internet have every right to do so, and with our combined efforts (the PPA and its members) Congress with act soon to remedy the UIGEA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUIGCkf66k

Please note, that the PPA has contacted Chris Young and received his approval to disseminate.

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If Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as lawful for resident adults, then why does anyone think Congress or UIGEA is trying to "block" that commerce, especially when Congress/UIGEA admitted it was fine?

If instead, Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as illegal, then why does anyone think Congress is the place to change Indiana law?

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Can you cite the Indiana law that treats online poker businesses as illegal?

[DeadMoneyDad]

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I wanted to share with the forum a You Tube post from a PPA Member who resides in Indiana. He is unable to attend the Washington "Fly-In" but was compelled to tell his poker story. As you will see, it is passionate, sincere and quite honestly, very moving. Unfortunately, Congress has overlooked people with special circumstances in its rush to block Internet access to content they deem to be objectionable. Consenting adults who wish to engage in a game of skill on the Internet have every right to do so, and with our combined efforts (the PPA and its members) Congress with act soon to remedy the UIGEA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUIGCkf66k

Please note, that the PPA has contacted Chris Young and received his approval to disseminate.

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If Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as lawful for resident adults, then why does anyone think Congress or UIGEA is trying to "block" that commerce, especially when Congress/UIGEA admitted it was fine?

If instead, Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as illegal, then why does anyone think Congress is the place to change Indiana law?

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Can you cite the Indiana law that treats online poker businesses as illegal?

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Public Law 227-2007

I don't know of a single operator claiming to have an IN license.


D$D

[Skallagrim]

Indiana is one of the really bad states: Defines gambling as a game that is even "part" chance (so almost no games are allowed to be played for money there), makes the player a criminal, and has an express provision governing the internet.

There is an argument, under the dormant commerce clause doctrine, that the provisions of Indiana law relating to the internet are unconstitutional. In Indiana's case this is a weak argument because they do not allow anyone to offer internet games (other than pari-mutual horse racing). The argument is much stronger (a winner IMHO) in states like Nevada that do have provisions for in-state internet gaming sites (even though they have never licensed one), and only disallow out of state sites.

Congress, however, by virtue of that same commerce clause, can provide that internet poker is protected interstate commerce and there would be nothing Indiana could do about that.

We can hope.

Skallagrim

Edit: IN does have a "bone fide contests of skill" exemption. So a poker tournament that is other wise a"Contest of skill" can be argued to be legal.

[permafrost]

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I wanted to share with the forum a You Tube post from a PPA Member who resides in Indiana. He is unable to attend the Washington "Fly-In" but was compelled to tell his poker story. As you will see, it is passionate, sincere and quite honestly, very moving. Unfortunately, Congress has overlooked people with special circumstances in its rush to block Internet access to content they deem to be objectionable. Consenting adults who wish to engage in a game of skill on the Internet have every right to do so, and with our combined efforts (the PPA and its members) Congress with act soon to remedy the UIGEA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUIGCkf66k

Please note, that the PPA has contacted Chris Young and received his approval to disseminate.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as lawful for resident adults, then why does anyone think Congress or UIGEA is trying to "block" that commerce, especially when Congress/UIGEA admitted it was fine?

If instead, Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as illegal, then why does anyone think Congress is the place to change Indiana law?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you cite the Indiana law that treats online poker businesses as illegal?

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My point is that either Indiana allows online poker businesses, or they don't. Either way, why bother Congress?

But since you brought up asking for cites, if there are rules and regs are that allow online poker businesses, please show me. I found the ones for licensing charitable gaming, riverboat casinos, racing concerns, etc. But nothing for online poker sites. Anyone?

[DeadMoneyDad]

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I wanted to share with the forum a You Tube post from a PPA Member who resides in Indiana. He is unable to attend the Washington "Fly-In" but was compelled to tell his poker story. As you will see, it is passionate, sincere and quite honestly, very moving. Unfortunately, Congress has overlooked people with special circumstances in its rush to block Internet access to content they deem to be objectionable. Consenting adults who wish to engage in a game of skill on the Internet have every right to do so, and with our combined efforts (the PPA and its members) Congress with act soon to remedy the UIGEA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUIGCkf66k

Please note, that the PPA has contacted Chris Young and received his approval to disseminate.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as lawful for resident adults, then why does anyone think Congress or UIGEA is trying to "block" that commerce, especially when Congress/UIGEA admitted it was fine?

If instead, Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as illegal, then why does anyone think Congress is the place to change Indiana law?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you cite the Indiana law that treats online poker businesses as illegal?

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My point is that either Indiana allows online poker businesses, or they don't. Either way, why bother Congress?

But since you brought up asking for cites, if there are rules and regs are that allow online poker businesses, please show me. I found the ones for licensing charitable gaming, riverboat casinos, racing concerns, etc. But nothing for online poker sites. Anyone?

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I wouldn't worry about the local laws the way you suggest anyone from IN not worry about Federal laws. Unless you get past IN's gaming commission you don't have a thing to say to any local agency.


D$D

[TheEngineer]

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I wanted to share with the forum a You Tube post from a PPA Member who resides in Indiana. He is unable to attend the Washington "Fly-In" but was compelled to tell his poker story. As you will see, it is passionate, sincere and quite honestly, very moving. Unfortunately, Congress has overlooked people with special circumstances in its rush to block Internet access to content they deem to be objectionable. Consenting adults who wish to engage in a game of skill on the Internet have every right to do so, and with our combined efforts (the PPA and its members) Congress with act soon to remedy the UIGEA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUIGCkf66k

Please note, that the PPA has contacted Chris Young and received his approval to disseminate.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as lawful for resident adults, then why does anyone think Congress or UIGEA is trying to "block" that commerce, especially when Congress/UIGEA admitted it was fine?

If instead, Indiana uses its well understood powers to treat online poker businesses as illegal, then why does anyone think Congress is the place to change Indiana law?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you cite the Indiana law that treats online poker businesses as illegal?

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that either Indiana allows online poker businesses, or they don't. Either way, why bother Congress?

But since you brought up asking for cites, if there are rules and regs are that allow online poker businesses, please show me. I found the ones for licensing charitable gaming, riverboat casinos, racing concerns, etc. But nothing for online poker sites. Anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct concerning Indiana. They do have a law addressing Internet gaming.

To your other point, it not up to states to "allow" anything. It's either illegal or it's permitted. In other words, it's up to them to pass laws against this, not for us to pass laws to permitting it (unless there is already a law against it, in which case it's up to us to change existing law).

We're "bothering" Congress to petition for interstate Internet poker rights. Interstate commerce is controlled at the federal level. While we believe the Wire Act doesn't apply to poker, the DoJ doesn't see it that way. We'll likely need some clarification, either legislatively or judicially, before U.S.-based sites will offer interstate poker (I write "likely" because some state could conceivably test this by licensing a site to offer interstate gaming). The bottom line is that there are federal laws and agencies blocking our path, and we're asking for relief. The Wexler bill does that perfectly.

[permafrost]

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Edit: IN does have a "bone fide contests of skill" exemption. So a poker tournament that is other wise a"Contest of skill" can be argued to be legal.


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IIRC, they define a card game to not be a "bone fide [sic] contest of skill".

[JPFisher55]

FWIW, the State of Washington's law that prohibits all betting-playing all online gambling is being challenged by an attorney, Lee Rousso, under the commerce clause and the dormant commerce clause cases. I read his petition. He believes that a state cannot prohibit private citizens from participating as a player-bettor in all online gambling.

[Skallagrim]

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Edit: IN does have a "bone fide contests of skill" exemption. So a poker tournament that is other wise a"Contest of skill" can be argued to be legal.


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IIRC, they define a card game to not be a "bone fide [sic] contest of skill".

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For everything else that is infuriating about your nitpicking, you are good at it /images/graemlins/wink.gif .

Yes, they passed amendments to their law that became effective July 1, 2007 that specifically states ALL card games are games of chance and cant be included in "bone fide contests." Nice catch.

And I hope the tactical teams have fun raiding the bridge clubs.

Skallagrim

[JPFisher55]

I wish that an inexpensive way existed to challenge the constitutionality of all these dumb "anti-gambling" laws.

[oldbookguy]

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To your other point, it not up to states to "allow" anything. It's either illegal or it's permitted. In other words, it's up to them to pass laws against this, not for us to pass laws to permitting it (unless there is already a law against it, in which case it's up to us to change existing law).

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Ok, bear with me on this, please. The above, on the face is true, but, even if laws are passed, do they apply to everyone, that is, those not located within the state borders? The 'all in' question so to speak.

The DoJ and others involved in trying to stop gambling think so. However......now bear with me, please.

Scalping tickets is illegal in most states though some allow a percentage markup.

Here is where I am going, re-selling at huge prices, way over face value on the Internet. I find NO cases where one state has gone after ANY re-seller for doing this on the Internet.

A random Yahoo seach turns up dozens of sites doing this.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=online+concert+tickets+sold+out&ei=utf-8&fr=b1ie7

Reading the TOS of one I read the following:

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11.3 Laws and Regulations. You warrant that you will comply with all applicable local, state, federal and international laws, statutes and regulations regarding use of the Site and selling value of the tickets. StubHub does not monitor, obtain, nor have any knowledge of the face value of tickets listed on the Site.

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Site:
http://www.stubhub.com/user_agreement

OK, so, if Stubhub can broker a scalper to sell me tickets in WV, against WV law with impunity, then, this 11 state ban thing can be overcome, I.E. Microgaming and more importantly, you guys stew on this a bit, somehow we should be able to cross over this to all gaming as well.

As you all know, I am just a simple ole mountain guy who is a minimalist at heart!

obg

[Uglyowl]

It's funny that Stubhub is owned by Ebay (a big enemy of the online poker). I heard Deval Patrick (governor of Mass.) talk about the Mass. law and although it's illegal, it's not on their priority list.

[DeadMoneyDad]

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OK, so, if Stubhub can broker a scalper to sell me tickets in WV, against WV law with impunity, then, this 11 state ban thing can be overcome, I.E. Microgaming and more importantly, you guys stew on this a bit, somehow we should be able to cross over this to all gaming as well.

As you all know, I am just a simple ole mountain guy who is a minimalist at heart!

obg

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Well if skalping ever becomes a 3/4 of a Trillion Dollar industry and the US banking system doesn't have a piece I'm sure they'll find a congressperson to write a law allowing them to block that as well.


D$D

[daryn]

who does it hurt? me