Some iffy $1k hands.

[Exitonly]

PokerStars Game #12669786004: Tournament #63665641, $1000+$50 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/10/16 - 20:43:43 (ET)
Table '63665641 9' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: CHINN (2790 in chips)
Seat 2: kAmIkAdZeEe (1210 in chips)
Seat 3: ShiP ThA $$$ (2975 in chips)
Seat 4: ryanbluf (3045 in chips)
Seat 5: gunning4you (4225 in chips)
Seat 6: Johnster (6910 in chips)
Seat 7: Exitonly4 (2985 in chips)
Seat 8: johny_chan88 (2175 in chips)
Seat 9: aaaaaaaa (4820 in chips)
kAmIkAdZeEe: posts small blind 25
ShiP ThA $$$: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Exitonly4 [Kc Jc]
ryanbluf: folds
gunning4you: folds
Johnster: folds
Exitonly4: raises 100 to 150
johny_chan88: calls 150
aaaaaaaa: folds
CHINN: folds
kAmIkAdZeEe: folds
ShiP ThA $$$: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc Qs Td]
Exitonly4: bets 200
johny_chan88: calls 200
*** TURN *** [Qc Qs Td] [4h]
Exitonly4: checks
johny_chan88: bets 325
Exitonly4: raises 1675 to 2000


He called quickly pf and on the flop, and i had been pretty inactive, i often just open-fold this, but had been quiet and thought it was enough of a hand. can i just check-fold flop? or maybe check/call that really tiny bet? in retrospect i dont think i like my c/r much at all, i think he'll check behind T's or some lower pairs hoping to just showdown vs AK. But if he's not betting pairs, then his range is what, AQ/TT? that makes calling kinda grim, hoping to hit maybe 4 outs?

anyway, next:

PokerStars Game #12670154009: Tournament #63665641, $1000+$50 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/10/16 - 21:03:32 (ET)
Table '63665641 9' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: kAmIkAdZeEe (1185 in chips)
Seat 3: ShiP ThA $$$ (2525 in chips)
Seat 4: ryanbluf (2095 in chips)
Seat 5: gunning4you (8165 in chips)
Seat 6: Johnster (6735 in chips)
Seat 7: Exitonly4 (810 in chips)
Seat 8: johny_chan88 (4500 in chips)
Seat 9: aaaaaaaa (5120 in chips)
Johnster: posts small blind 50
Exitonly4: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Exitonly4 [Ts Ah]
johny_chan88: folds
aaaaaaaa: folds
kAmIkAdZeEe: folds
ShiP ThA $$$: raises 155 to 255
ryanbluf: folds
gunning4you: folds
Johnster: folds
Exitonly4 is disconnected
Exitonly4 is connected
Exitonly4: calls 155
*** FLOP *** [Td 3d 7c]
Exitonly4: bets 555 and is all-in

at this stage of the tournament, is shiptha opening light enough that i have to play ATo here? later on in the tournament i think its much easier, but at this point he might be opening significatnyl tighter.

given that i decided to play it, stop and go>shove right? and does this stay true afer i flop TPTK? He can't think that i'm going to check/fold after calling pf, so i think i have to shove.


and finally:

PokerStars Game #12670368410: Tournament #63665641, $1000+$50 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/10/16 - 21:15:02 (ET)
Table '63665641 9' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: biotop (5085 in chips)
Seat 2: Ranger_R (2710 in chips)
Seat 3: ShiP ThA $$$ (2595 in chips)
Seat 4: ryanbluf (4905 in chips)
Seat 5: gunning4you (7190 in chips)
Seat 6: Johnster (6285 in chips)
Seat 7: Exitonly4 (1470 in chips)
Seat 8: johny_chan88 (3920 in chips)
Seat 9: aaaaaaaa (4620 in chips)
biotop: posts small blind 50
Ranger_R: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Exitonly4 [Qh Qs]
ShiP ThA $$$: folds
ryanbluf: folds
gunning4you: folds
Johnster: folds
Exitonly4: raises 200 to 300
johny_chan88: folds
aaaaaaaa: folds
biotop: calls 250
Ranger_R: folds
*** FLOP *** [5h Ad 4d]
biotop: checks
Exitonly4: checks
*** TURN *** [5h Ad 4d] [Jh]
biotop: bets 400
Exitonly4: raises 770 to 1170 and is all-in

Hadn't seen the guy play a hand, i've been tight/straightforward, i didnt think bet-fold or bet-call flop was a good line, but after checking i kinda felt like my hand was too faceup for him to not try and stab at it


so what lines do you guys prefer?

[luckychewy]

1) i like it, not sure how much i like it but it seems okay. mainly because w/o any fd's he's prob much less inclined to call w/ a ten because he has to put you on a sd or total air. i also think given his timing firing the turn again is okay.

2) not really sure, i know AJ i'd never fold but AT seems borderline. w/ 8bb i prob play it even if it is marginal in terms of cEV and maybe even slightly negative just because it's a spot to accumulate and you might not find a better spot even for an open shove before you get blinded down.

fwiw i just put it in pre though. he knows you're sng'ing and while i have no idea how to evaluate the EV between sng and shove pf i think just getting it in pf is better because in a way you let him play close to perfectly post flop(ie - i don't think he almost ever folds any pairs and probably doesn't call w/ a worse hand TOO often).

3) looks pretty standard to me. his cc from the sb shouldn't be ax too often and with this board texture he can have a lot of semibluffs or worse pairs. and with your stack i don't think there is any value to calling and playing the river.

[Exitonly]

thought about it more, agree w/ that being a bad time to use the stop and go, i'd like it more if: he was a random not a regular that knows what i'm doing, he opened from later (wider) and if had a weaker hand (like, A5o or KQ)

[Todd Terry]

#1: seems fine, although Villain's small bet size might mean he has a big hand.

#2: I'd fold pre. I hate the stop-n-go, I've never understood it, I hate it even more now that everyone knows what it is. As played, I'd check the flop, I think his c-betting range has to be wider than his shove calling range, and having hit you want his chips to go in. Which incidentally is one of the things I hate about the SNG -- if you hit the flop and don't have many chips left, why would you ever bet?

#3: I like shoving pre here, no one else on this forum does. As played, since you're not folding, you might as well get him to put his chips in, so I like the check behind on the flop to induce a bet on the turn.

[luckychewy]

[ QUOTE ]
thought about it more, agree w/ that being a bad time to use the stop and go, i'd like it more if: he was a random not a regular that knows what i'm doing, he opened from later (wider) and if had a weaker hand (like, A5o or KQ)

[/ QUOTE ]

well he almost surely recognizes you're short before he opens and is ready to call your shove so he should never have total air here(29o, T3s etc.) esp w/o antees. so i'd just want to push my equity edge vs. QJo/K9s and not want them to fold on 543 boards, while still expecting to get it in vs. any pair on most every board and any better ace.

[Exitonly]

i'd shove #3 in earlier position w/ antes, i think.

and there are definitely spots where a stop and go can be good, for example last night at shaun deebs FT (from memory, #'s slightly off i'm sure):

unknown button opens to 25k at 4k/8k w/ 100k behind, Shaun has ~60k in the SB, and stop and goes w/ A6o, and the guy folds, getting >2:1 on the flop. i didnt do the math on it, but i'm like 90% sure that guy [censored] up and the SnG had more equity than a shove.

[luckychewy]

i just open fold a6o to an unknown button open when i still have open shove fe. i never fold at, and sometimes fold a8/a9. terrible?

[jlocdog]

Hand 1: does he often valuebet the T on this turn? Seems thin.

Hand 2: don't think he folds hands like AK with these stacks on many flops. So that takes a toll on the stop/go. Thats not to say I like a shove. Just saying....

Hand 3: played very well.

[shaundeeb]

Full Tilt Poker Game #3869952436: $1K Monday (28676110), Table 14 - 2500/5000 Ante 600 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:30:34 ET - 2007/10/16
Seat 1: BLAKE39 (118,714)
Seat 2: RAZER2007 (77,657)
Seat 3: tedsfishfry (33,669)
Seat 4: mrcall912 (98,096)
Seat 5: DEEEPANL (209,000)
Seat 6: reena97 (78,332)
Seat 7: allinsi (197,072)
Seat 8: U_2Good4_Me (161,062)
Seat 9: howURname (37,398)
BLAKE39 antes 600
RAZER2007 antes 600
tedsfishfry antes 600
mrcall912 antes 600
DEEEPANL antes 600
reena97 antes 600
allinsi antes 600
U_2Good4_Me antes 600
howURname antes 600
tedsfishfry posts the small blind of 2,500
mrcall912 posts the big blind of 5,000
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tedsfishfry [Ah 6d]
DEEEPANL folds
reena97 folds
allinsi folds
U_2Good4_Me folds
howURname folds
BLAKE39 folds
RAZER2007 raises to 15,000
tedsfishfry calls 12,500
mrcall912 has 15 seconds left to act
mrcall912 folds
*** FLOP *** [5c Qc 2s]
tedsfishfry bets 18,069, and is all in
RAZER2007 has 15 seconds left to act
ProbBluffingYou (Observer): slowroll
CrzyNebraska (Observer): lol
RAZER2007 has requested TIME
skater3598 (Observer): fing nice
hawthorn18 (Observer): callllllllllll
Zima421 (Observer): hmmmm
52isNuts (Observer): snap
CrzyNebraska (Observer): SLOWROLL
skater3598 (Observer): nice nice nice nice nice omfg sicko nice
52isNuts (Observer): snap call
CrzyNebraska (Observer): SLOWROLL\
RAZER2007 folds
Uncalled bet of 18,069 returned to tedsfishfry
tedsfishfry mucks
16intheclip (Observer): middle
tedsfishfry wins the pot (40,400)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 40,400 | Rake 0
Board: [5c Qc 2s]
Seat 1: BLAKE39 folded before the Flop
Seat 2: RAZER2007 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: tedsfishfry (small blind) collected (40,400), mucked
Seat 4: mrcall912 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: DEEEPANL folded before the Flop
Seat 6: reena97 folded before the Flop
Seat 7: allinsi folded before the Flop
Seat 8: U_2Good4_Me folded before the Flop
Seat 9: howURname folded before the Flop

[Pasterbator]

Hand 1: I'd rather keep betting the turn than c/c or c/r. Most/all smaller pairs should fold, and maybe the T will fold too. Once you check, i'd fold to most REAL bets.

To this turn bet i'm c/c and:

b/f any K.
c/f any blank.
c/r any A.
bet/call any 9.

[Pasterbator]

Hand 2:

I think AT is very borderline, but i can definitely see making this play. As played, you're way more likely to get all your money in by open-pushing than by checking. I mean, he expects you to push the flop with any2, so hes def calling any A high/pair/whatever.

Hand 3:

Looks completely standard. Not much you can do at this point so just cross your fingers that he calls you down with a J.

[luckychewy]

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker Game #3869952436: $1K Monday (28676110), Table 14 - 2500/5000 Ante 600 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:30:34 ET - 2007/10/16
Seat 1: BLAKE39 (118,714)
Seat 2: RAZER2007 (77,657)
Seat 3: tedsfishfry (33,669)
Seat 4: mrcall912 (98,096)
Seat 5: DEEEPANL (209,000)
Seat 6: reena97 (78,332)
Seat 7: allinsi (197,072)
Seat 8: U_2Good4_Me (161,062)
Seat 9: howURname (37,398)
BLAKE39 antes 600
RAZER2007 antes 600
tedsfishfry antes 600
mrcall912 antes 600
DEEEPANL antes 600
reena97 antes 600
allinsi antes 600
U_2Good4_Me antes 600
howURname antes 600
tedsfishfry posts the small blind of 2,500
mrcall912 posts the big blind of 5,000
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tedsfishfry [Ah 6d]
DEEEPANL folds
reena97 folds
allinsi folds
U_2Good4_Me folds
howURname folds
BLAKE39 folds
RAZER2007 raises to 15,000
tedsfishfry calls 12,500
mrcall912 has 15 seconds left to act
mrcall912 folds
*** FLOP *** [5c Qc 2s]
tedsfishfry bets 18,069, and is all in
RAZER2007 has 15 seconds left to act
ProbBluffingYou (Observer): slowroll
CrzyNebraska (Observer): lol
RAZER2007 has requested TIME
skater3598 (Observer): fing nice
hawthorn18 (Observer): callllllllllll
Zima421 (Observer): hmmmm
52isNuts (Observer): snap
CrzyNebraska (Observer): SLOWROLL
skater3598 (Observer): nice nice nice nice nice omfg sicko nice
52isNuts (Observer): snap call
CrzyNebraska (Observer): SLOWROLL\
RAZER2007 folds
Uncalled bet of 18,069 returned to tedsfishfry
tedsfishfry mucks
16intheclip (Observer): middle
tedsfishfry wins the pot (40,400)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 40,400 | Rake 0
Board: [5c Qc 2s]
Seat 1: BLAKE39 folded before the Flop
Seat 2: RAZER2007 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: tedsfishfry (small blind) collected (40,400), mucked
Seat 4: mrcall912 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: DEEEPANL folded before the Flop
Seat 6: reena97 folded before the Flop
Seat 7: allinsi folded before the Flop
Seat 8: U_2Good4_Me folded before the Flop
Seat 9: howURname folded before the Flop

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is probably spew but dunno if it is nor do i have any idea how to figure it out. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[TheNewf]

3 looks good, I'd just fold 2 so I could pushbot my way to glory, and I think 1 is pretty spewy unless your timing tells are reliable.

[shaundeeb]

[ QUOTE ]
i just open fold a6o to an unknown button open when i still have open shove fe. i never fold at, and sometimes fold a8/a9. terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding A8 A9 there is reallllly bad.

[rppkoz]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I'd rather keep betting the turn than c/c or c/r. Most/all smaller pairs should fold, and maybe the T will fold too. Once you check, i'd fold to most REAL bets.

To this turn bet i'm c/c and:

b/f any K.
c/f any blank.
c/r any A.
bet/call any 9.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this, but are you also b/f any J?

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I'd rather keep betting the turn than c/c or c/r. Most/all smaller pairs should fold, and maybe the T will fold too. Once you check, i'd fold to most REAL bets.

To this turn bet i'm c/c and:

b/f any K.
c/f any blank.
c/r any A.
bet/call any 9.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this, but are you also b/f any J?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, yea i forgot to include that. Yes, im b/f any J as well.

[Requin]

Actually looking at bet sizes I think I like 1.

[RandALLin]

I like 1 b/c he like never has a Q here according to your tells + his bet size imo. I think he'd bet more on the turn to entice more raises w/ a Q.

I think 2 is okay b/c I respect ship tha $$$ notsomuch. He's an over aggro p5er who opens too much from my history w/ him, so I think this is fine. Also, I'd check the flop since you hit it and he's an idiot he will not check behind.

I would have played 3 the exact same.

[mikeymer]

Rand I don't think ship tha $$ opens light at 50/100 generally, but in the case when there is a short BB, many people open lighter bc the BB doesn't have any FE and will need a real hand to shove, and usually isn't calling.

[ChipRick]

dont like the CR on hand one, it looks like that is what he wants....also i dont think hes betting a ten there...hand 2 i hate stop n gos so i would fold that PF.....hand 3 not sure, i kind of like the call but just not sure...

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker Game #3869952436: $1K Monday (*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tedsfishfry [Ah 6d]
DEEEPANL folds
reena97 folds
allinsi folds
U_2Good4_Me folds
howURname folds
BLAKE39 folds
RAZER2007 raises to 15,000
tedsfishfry calls 12,500
mrcall912 has 15 seconds left to act
mrcall912 folds
*** FLOP *** [5c Qc 2s]
tedsfishfry bets 18,069, and is all in


[/ QUOTE ] at first glance, I thought this was bad with the bb still to play and that a push would have been much better. but on further thought, i think this is terrific:

bb folds pf: great for you
bb pushes pf: well, you were in trouble anyway.
bb calls pf: stop and go squeeze

[curtains]

Id never fold the ATo there unless I knew the guy was definitely very tight.

[TheNewf]

Shaun's sng is ok, I'd still rather push preflop for value, but we will often get him to incorrectly fold worse hands that have 6 or more outs against us and should therefore call on the flop so it's not bad. I guess there's an outside chance he's bad enough to fold a better hand on the flop but it's extremely unlikely.

[Pudge714]

Hand 1 seems like you didn't even realize his turn bet size.
I would rather two barrel and call that small bet as played

Hand 2
If he is opening wide enough sure. I don't really like SnGing vs. good players because they won't make retarded folds and when you flop a hand you can't really check or it looks huge.

Hand 3
With two fds on board I like the shove.