KK flop play?

[cunning]

Villain is 37/26/3.6 over 245 hands

I was wandering what others would do here? should i bet?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

MP: $17.40
CO: $11.65
Hero (BTN): $26.95
SB: $9.70
BB: $22.90
UTG: $11.60

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $0.35</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1</font>, CO calls $0.65

Flop: ($2.15) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Results: $2.15 Pot ($2.15 Rake)

ty

i will post the other streets after some replies.

[losingdonkey]

Bet the flop, fold to a raise. His range is wider than just Ax, even with the 3bet pre.

[Milky]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, fold to a raise. His range is wider than just Ax, even with the 3bet pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You make the hand much more difficult to play by checking here.

[Nick Royale]

Flop check is good.

[Eric Draven]

Why raise? I can't see a better hand folding or a worse hand calling...

I check, and probably call a turn bet and maybe a reasonable river bet as well, depending on the cards and action on the turn and river.

[thac]

If you check the flop, you should be betting turn and river for value. Flop check is okay.

I'd make it 1.2 or 1.3 pre as well.

[cunning]

Heres how the rest of that hand played out, I think he thinks im alot weaker then KK here but im baffled by his river bet.
How would you play turn? is this an easy river fold?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

MP: $17.40
CO: $11.65
Hero (BTN): $26.95
SB: $9.70
BB: $22.90
UTG: $11.60

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $0.35</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1</font>, CO calls $0.65

Flop: ($2.15) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($2.15) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $1.50</font>, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($5.15) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $8</font>

Hero?

[losingdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

no it isnt

[21SuicideKing21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

no it isnt

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree, you could take the pot right here and if he calls here, you would be in position the rest of the hand and also it doesn't mean he has an Ace.

[21SuicideKing21]

[ QUOTE ]
Heres how the rest of that hand played out, I think he thinks im alot weaker then KK here but im baffled by his river bet.
How would you play turn? is this an easy river fold?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

MP: $17.40
CO: $11.65
Hero (BTN): $26.95
SB: $9.70
BB: $22.90
UTG: $11.60

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $0.35</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1</font>, CO calls $0.65

Flop: ($2.15) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($2.15) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $1.50</font>, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($5.15) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $8</font>

Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here I'm folding, looks weird that he overbets, but what could you be beating here besides a bluff.

[CruS]

checking the flop is fine since you induce bluffs and a lighter calling range on the rest of the streets.
Fold this river.

[Nick Royale]

Fold riv. Rest is fine.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

no it isnt

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree, you could take the pot right here and if he calls here, you would be in position the rest of the hand and also it doesn't mean he has an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
Think about what hands you take the pot from. They usually have 4 outs at most. Playing for pot control is fine since you can't get more than max 2 streets of value anyway. Getting check/raised by a draw would suck too because we can't call.

Now betting isn't bad because it charges draws, but checking is cerainly fine. At a dry flop checking would be mandatory.

[EMc]

Betting the flop turns your hand into a bluff. Checking it allows yuo to bet later for value. FWIW Id probably check AA here sometimes, probably not AK however.

[MaltbyStu]

The only reason I can think that you and Nick advocate a check is because PF is 3bet.
Are we c-betting by default if we are PF raiser?

[MaltbyStu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

no it isnt

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree, you could take the pot right here and if he calls here, you would be in position the rest of the hand and also it doesn't mean he has an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
Think about what hands you take the pot from. They usually have 4 outs at most. Playing for pot control is fine since you can't get more than max 2 streets of value anyway. Getting check/raised by a draw would suck too because we can't call.

Now betting isn't bad because it charges draws, but checking is cerainly fine. At a dry flop checking would be mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nick, if we knew that he had exactly a FD and nothing else, why are we unable to call. I thought we had &gt;60% equity against a draw. Why would calling be wrong?

Would you also explain why checking a dry flop is mandatory, is it due to the 3 -bet being called?

Thanks,

Stu

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I can think that you and Nick advocate a check is because PF is 3bet.
Are we c-betting by default if we are PF raiser?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I stated above why I'm checking the flop.. because I can bet turn and river for value if checked to. I'd most likely play it the same way if it wasn't 3-bet preflop because we'd be optimistic to get a call from QJ on flop and get him to check turn and call a river bet. But when we check the flop, bet the turn and bet the river.. it looks less like we have an ace and he'll be more likely to call to try and pick off our bluff.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Nick, if we knew that he had exactly a FD and nothing else, why are we unable to call. I thought we had &gt;60% equity against a draw. Why would calling be wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
You're correct, if we knew he had a draw we don't fold. I meant that if we get check/raised we can't call vs his range because it contains Ax/2-pairs etc.


[ QUOTE ]
Would you also explain why checking a dry flop is mandatory, is it due to the 3 -bet being called?

[/ QUOTE ]
Betting on this somewhat wet flop serves the purpose of charging draws. On a dry A-high flop (eg A93 rainbow) betting will turn our hand into a bluff. He's likely to fold anything worse than KK because he needs to fear us having a strong ace.

The A93-board is a perfect example of a way ahead/way behind situation (most often refered to as WA/WB). If we are ahead villain has very few outs and thus checking isn't likely to cost us the pot. If we're behind, well then betting obv is bad too. By checking the flop we will likely induce a lighter calldown (from worse PPs for example) or maybe induce a bluff. That's why checking this flop should be mandatory.

I'm checking the A93-board even if I only raised preflop too, because of the same reasons I check when it's 3-bet. I'm probably checking the board in OP if it's only raised as well, even though the pot being 3-bet makes me more inclined to check.


Now that I re-read op I saw villain is very aggro I def prefer checking the flop in OP despite it being pretty wet, to not get semi-bluffed and get called down lighter or induce a bluff.


I hoped that cleared some stuff up.