50nl - AA villian shoves river

[whyzze]

No reads. Villian is 23/17/3.5. I am running about 23/20/4.

What do you think of the turn? More importantly, do you call the river?


Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

SB: $65
Hero (BB): $87.15
UTG: $46.50
MP: $35.35
CO: $76.05
BTN: $103.30

Pre-Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif dealt to Hero (BB)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.75</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, CO calls $4.25

Flop: ($12.25) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, CO calls $8

Turn: ($28.25) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($28.25) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $19</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $62.05 and is All-In</font>, Hero ???

[corsakh]

I think its a fold. The only thing you beat here is JT and I doubt it plays so passively.

[Nemesis69]

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I think its a fold. The only thing you beat here is JT and I doubt it plays so passively.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not even beating that /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think this is a clear baluga.

[mickske]

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I think its a fold. The only thing you beat here is JT and I doubt it plays so passively.

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You're not even beating that /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think this is a clear baluga.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA55x vs JJTTx.

Anyway, fold.

[Nemesis69]

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I think its a fold. The only thing you beat here is JT and I doubt it plays so passively.

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You're not even beating that /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think this is a clear baluga.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA55x vs JJTTx.

Anyway, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I suck at poker. I'd better review handrankings again. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[rjacobs003]

Ok I'm confused. You guys need to run me through some detail on why this is so clear-cut as a fold. Does our turn check not show us up for weakness which he could well be trying to exploit on the river?

[Nick Royale]

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What do you think of the turn? More importantly, do you call the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
The most important part of this hand is betting the turn and it's not close.

[Nemesis69]

The only hand that we beat I see villian doing this with is QQ.

[Nick Royale]

Pay off on the turn river. You've under repped your hand and villain is aggressive. If villain has JJ/TT so be it.

And this is not baluga.

[IlPug]

I think you really needed to bet turn here. Were you trying to induce a bet from a hand like KJ/AJ/QJx? River is scary, Villain could have easily flopped a set and played it like this w/TT or JJ. 55 I think he might have layed it down pre, but still a possibility. I think Villain has you beat way to often here, and without other reads would lay it down. Sure, he could be making this push with something like KJ-KQ on a semi-bluff/bluff, but I think this is too hard to tell without knowing more abt Villain's play.

Cliff notes: Turn was bad, I think, you really should have bet. I would lay down river without a better read.

[rjacobs003]

If we're going to check the turn for pot control, how about a check-call on the river as well. Chances are we can see a much cheaper showdown that way?

[Nemesis69]

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If we're going to check the turn for pot control, how about a check-call on the river as well. Chances are we can see a much cheaper showdown that way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is the value?

[Nick Royale]

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If we're going to check the turn for pot control, how about a check-call on the river as well. Chances are we can see a much cheaper showdown that way?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a great spot with AA in a rr pot. We do not want to see a cheap sd damnit.

[rjacobs003]

lol. Lemme try again. I assumed that's why OP checked the turn so as played, is a river check/call not better. Otherwise why check the turn here?

[whyzze]

so checking the turn and calling river are both horrible?

[Nick Royale]

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lol. Lemme try again. I assumed that's why OP checked the turn so as played, is a river check/call not better. Otherwise why check the turn here?

[/ QUOTE ]
You're basically saying that because we make a bad turn play we should follow up with a retarded river line just to make the line congruent.

[Nick Royale]

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so checking the turn and calling river are both horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]
Calling the river is not horrible. Not betting the turn is.

Problem with calling the river is if he checks the turn for pot control with Jx/QQ he's not going to push the river. He could check the turn with KK/QQ to extract an extra bet on the river from you and then push hoping you'll pay off with Jx/QQ though.

Given that villain is aggressive, you've under repped your hand, you're getting good odds and there's twice as many KK/QQ combos as JJ/TT calling is definately ok anyhow, and it's what I'd do.

[whyzze]

I was villian in this btw. I just wanted to check that my river shove wasn't a total spew. Yes..it was a bluff.

I had him on some garbage hand/bluff that couldn't stand any heat after he checked the turn.

[terrible]

the problem with this bluff is that you're representing an incredibly small range of hands (JJ and TT), both of which are very unlikely and both of which bet this turn imo. if i had AA in this river spot i'd call because your line doesn't make much sense. if you put him on basically air himself then it's fine but i don't love it overall.

[prodonkey]

I agree.. I'd call with AA there.. what are you representing, some random 5 or TT/JJ that went for a stack-a-donk and whiffed?

[Nemesis69]

If I was hero I'd fold. The only thing we were beating was air. Whyzze is getting really fond with bluffing imo /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Nick Royale]

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I agree.. I'd call with AA there.. what are you representing, some random 5 or TT/JJ that went for a stack-a-donk and whiffed?


[/ QUOTE ]
I think all the villain's me, I'm not hero etc. got you confused.

[prodonkey]

No, not really.. I know what is going on.

[rjacobs003]

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lol. Lemme try again. I assumed that's why OP checked the turn so as played, is a river check/call not better. Otherwise why check the turn here?

[/ QUOTE ]
You're basically saying that because we make a bad turn play we should follow up with a retarded river line just to make the line congruent.

[/ QUOTE ]

No....As a matter of fact I was just asking why a bet/call is better than a check/call in this situation assuming we've gone with a turn check. Don't mind it being called retarded if you must but appreciate some constructive input please.

[corsakh]

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What do you think of the turn? More importantly, do you call the river?

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The most important part of this hand is betting the turn and it's not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely no need to.

[Nick Royale]

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No, not really.. I know what is going on.

[/ QUOTE ]
He checked behind the turn, he didn't go for a stack-a-donk.

[ama0330]

We're too deep to call this. I would call if it was a little more shallow.

[Nick Royale]

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lol. Lemme try again. I assumed that's why OP checked the turn so as played, is a river check/call not better. Otherwise why check the turn here?

[/ QUOTE ]
You're basically saying that because we make a bad turn play we should follow up with a retarded river line just to make the line congruent.

[/ QUOTE ]

No....As a matter of fact I was just asking why a bet/call is better than a check/call in this situation assuming we've gone with a turn check. Don't mind it being called retarded if you must but appreciate some constructive input please.

[/ QUOTE ]
The river isn't going to get raised often enough for making it a big concern. If I'm checking the it's to raise ai because that would look like garbage and it will get paid off pretty light (a pretty decent line imo). I wouldn't check because I would like to see a cheap sd.

Sorry if I came off harsch, but even if checking the turn would be the correct play (which is what your assuming in the first post qouted) it could be because you're getting paid off light on the river. Or it could be because he's looking for a c/r on the turn. Etc. So there doesn't need to be any incongruens between checking turn and betting river when it gets checked through. His check behind on the turn gives us additional information.

[Nick Royale]

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What do you think of the turn? More importantly, do you call the river?

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The most important part of this hand is betting the turn and it's not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely no need to.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, note taken.

[Brian O'Nolan]

I like this spot for a river shove with no pair... I wouldn't be real confident that most people can fold an overpair here but if you got a decent read I like it. Your line is reasonable for JJ/TT. I think pf is good too if this guy could ever fold AA on this river.

[traz]

wtfwtfwtfwtf

call river all day

[traz]

Also bluff-shoving this river is really bad imo and most good players can spot this a mile away. Bet the turn &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; shoving river (as villain)

[Brian O'Nolan]

[ QUOTE ]
Also bluff-shoving this river is really bad imo and most good players can spot this a mile away. Bet the turn &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; shoving river (as villain)

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because he has solid pf stats doesn't mean he is good postflop. Read through the first replies to this thread; you get a fold out of a smallish subset of 50NL players often enough on this river.

[Nick Royale]

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Also bluff-shoving this river is really bad imo and most good players can spot this a mile away. Bet the turn &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; shoving river (as villain)

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because he has solid pf stats doesn't mean he is good postflop. Read through the first replies to this thread; you get a fold out of a smallish subset of 50NL players often enough on this river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the average 2+2-poster should be considered the average taggish 50nl player.

[traz]

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Also bluff-shoving this river is really bad imo and most good players can spot this a mile away. Bet the turn &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; shoving river (as villain)

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because he has solid pf stats doesn't mean he is good postflop. Read through the first replies to this thread; you get a fold out of a smallish subset of 50NL players often enough on this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot trust the average player to fold QQ+ here. Nor should you really, because you're repping a very narrow range.

[prodonkey]

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I like this spot for a river shove with no pair... I wouldn't be real confident that most people can fold an overpair here but if you got a decent read I like it. Your line is reasonable for JJ/TT. I think pf is good too if this guy could ever fold AA on this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't try to make people lay down overpairs.. it costs a lot of $.

[CruS]

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I like this spot for a river shove with no pair... I wouldn't be real confident that most people can fold an overpair here but if you got a decent read I like it. Your line is reasonable for JJ/TT. I think pf is good too if this guy could ever fold AA on this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't try to make people lay down overpairs.. it costs a lot of $.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[You're No Daisy]

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I think its a fold. The only thing you beat here is JT and I doubt it plays so passively.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not even beating that /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think this is a clear baluga.

[/ QUOTE ]
He has aces up. How is he not beating Jack and Tens?

[AZplaya]

whyzze,
who was hero in this hand? I think you need a read that he hero will lay down TPTK+ before you bluff shove this river. As noted I much prefer taking a stab at the pot on the turn.

[r2me]

[/ QUOTE ]
He has aces up. How is he not beating Jack and Tens?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villan could have: (1) lower overpair (QQ/KK), J10, trips (JJ, 10/10), or air (OESD that didn't connect). We have top 2 pr.

Villan's line (at least initially) just doesn't look like a set on the flop to me. Villan was IP w/ a chance to bet on the turn...but didn't. Then reraised all in when board paired.

My first thought was this is a clear call since villan could have lower overpairs or J10. But villan could also be doing a "stutter step" check on turn given the pot size to induce a bet from hero. If you look @ stack sizes, then a raise on rivr would enable villan to get his $ all in w/ a raise. (Since villan is in position, it also gives villan another chance to bet @ &amp; build this pot if s/he checks river.)

What would I do? /images/graemlins/confused.gif I would call [because our hand is just too good against the full range of villan] &amp; make a careful note about this player. (And throw my mouse across the room if this was a slow played set on the flop that filled up on the rivrr.) /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[GSykes]

easy call IMO
you under repped your hand
people play bad in three bet pots

this is not a haiku

[Bill Smith]

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I was villian in this btw. I just wanted to check that my river shove wasn't a total spew. Yes..it was a bluff.

I had him on some garbage hand/bluff that couldn't stand any heat after he checked the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You offered villian 3:1 when he should be able to discern that if you had something you would've charged potential overcard gutshot draws on the turn and that your range includes plenty of hands and garbage he beats. I think you got very lucky here.

[Bill Smith]

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easy call IMO
you under repped your hand
people play bad in three bet pots

this is not a haiku

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 3-to-1
Hero should insta-call this
L-O-L-aments

[GSykes]

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easy call IMO
you under repped your hand
people play bad in three bet pots

this is not a haiku

[/ QUOTE ]

NICE HAND

Getting 3-to-1
Hero should insta-call this
L-O-L-aments

[/ QUOTE ]

[NL Newbie]

OOoooHH.

You know that 5 is such an awesome card for us, i can see him having AJ/Air alot here.

Deep though, kinda sick. He's never got a 5, its JJ/TT/QQ/Air

Its pretty close, i dont think a fold or a call is bad tbh.

Youve shown some weakness, theres quite a large % he bluffs here IMO(or turns his hand into a bluff).