AA river decision vs showdown muppet

[0524432]

villain is 71.97/5.41/1.67 over 40 hands

How do I deal with this superdonk?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

BB: $25
Hero (UTG): $42
MP: $27.30
CO: $10.75
BTN: $27.40
SB: $46.05

Pre-Flop: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $0.85</font>, 3 folds, SB calls $0.75, BB folds

Flop: ($1.95) J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $0.25</font>, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($2.45) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $2</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, SB calls $4

River: ($14.45) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $13</font>, Hero ???

[CruS]

raise the flop,
There are two hearts out there and two jacks, he minbetdonks which usually is a sign of big hand or weak hand, find out now.

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop,
There are two hearts out there and two jacks, he minbetdonks which usually is a sign of big hand or weak hand, find out now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I like raising the non heart turn better. Any reasonable size raise is going to get a call by a FD, given the size of the pot on the flop. Also, raising into the JJ2 flop with aces I just don't like much at all, IMO we're only extracting $ from a FD there, and get played back at too often after opening PF and leading a cbet. IMO raising the turn is deceptive enough to extract value from a arger range.

[CruS]

I don't like being too tricky w/ good hands. It will mess you up in a lot of situations. I want to know what kind of hand he has on the flop so later street decisions is easier, plus I have a great hand and want value from anything I can get it from. How about other pps?

[Schiester]

Don't be tricky with aces. I played the most shocking hand of my life yesterday because I couldn't fold AA and I still feel like a twit.

Bet the flop ~ $2 - 2.50.
Bet 2/3 on turn.

[AFCBeer]

I see no reason not to raise the flop. It charges FD's and will still get called by smaller pocket pairs. If villain reraises I guess we can fold but I definately think hands worse than ours will call a flop raise.

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like being too tricky w/ good hands. It will mess you up in a lot of situations. I want to know what kind of hand he has on the flop so later street decisions is easier, plus I have a great hand and want value from anything I can get it from. How about other pps?

[/ QUOTE ]

Other pps have lesser value as you go down the list and begin to become more vulnerable to having the villain betting out his pp which is higher than ours. While I agree playing hands in an overly tricky way can often create difficult situations, this is not one of them IMO. Raising this flop after opening in EP gives away far too much info IMO.

[Khumalo]

I call river as played versus this villain, though it's pretty close given his passivity.

Given your opponent's stats I make a reasonable raise on the flop only because his calling range that you beat there is still going to be large: lots of flush draws, lots of pocket pairs, some Ax hands, a few 2x hands, and a few backdoor straight draws. So make it a raise that hands like that can call, nothing huge, I'd say.

If he still leads turn for close to pot I go into check-call mode onto river and very likely fold if/when he overbets or shoves into me. If he checks turn I continue value-betting, but will strongly consider dumping if CRed.

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
I see no reason not to raise the flop. It charges FD's and will still get called by smaller pocket pairs. If villain reraises I guess we can fold but I definately think hands worse than ours will call a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with the smaller pp part

[Schiester]

[ QUOTE ]
I see no reason not to raise the flop. It charges FD's and will still get called by smaller pocket pairs. If villain reraises I guess we can fold but I definately think hands worse than ours will call a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you said, raising flop prices out draws and adds value to your hand. Any aggression from him after this makes this hand much easier to ditch.

You are probably ahead on flop; get some money in now instead of when a 3rd heart (etc) falls.

[downrange]

[ QUOTE ]
I call river as played versus this villain, though it's pretty close given his passivity.

[/ QUOTE ]
1.7 on 70 vpip is extremely aggressive; granted it's only 40 hands but this guy is either betting anything anywhere or folding a lot.

On the end I think this guy is either bluffing an inferior split/pocket pair using the rr flush or has 2x clubs or Th8h. I normally play limit but you need to be right here 1/3 and in an essentially readless situation the way the board has drawn up, I think you need better odds to make the call.

He makes a teensy-tiny flop donk, probably bets turn thinking you'll give up but he calls a big raise. Because he didn't reraise turn he doesn't have a J; if he doesn't have a J then he must have donked flop with an inferior split/pocket pair or heart draw. So on the turn he either picked up a 4-fl or str draw + 4-fl. If he's been b-f a lot I pitch this.

[CruS]

"I definately think hands worse than ours will call a flop raise."
Then raise?

[Schiester]

[ QUOTE ]
"I definately think hands worse than ours will call a flop raise."
Then raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. exactly.

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
"I definately think hands worse than ours will call a flop raise."
Then raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes anyone think that a hand like 33-99 or Jx is going to B/C a raise on this flop?

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call river as played versus this villain, though it's pretty close given his passivity.

[/ QUOTE ]
1.7 on 70 vpip is extremely aggressive; granted it's only 40 hands but this guy is either betting anything anywhere or folding a lot.

On the end I think this guy is either bluffing an inferior split/pocket pair using the rr flush or has 2x clubs or Th8h. I normally play limit but you need to be right here 1/3 and in an essentially readless situation the way the board has drawn up, I think you need better odds to make the call.

He makes a teensy-tiny flop donk, probably bets turn thinking you'll give up but he calls a big raise. Because he didn't reraise turn he doesn't have a J; if he doesn't have a J then he must have donked flop with an inferior split/pocket pair or heart draw. So on the turn he either picked up a 4-fl or str draw + 4-fl. If he's been b-f a lot I pitch this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

BB: $25
Hero (UTG): $42
MP: $27.30
CO: $10.75
BTN: $27.40
SB: $46.05

Pre-Flop: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $0.85</font>, 3 folds, SB calls $0.75, BB folds

Flop: ($1.95) J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $0.25</font>, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($2.45) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $2</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, SB calls $4

River: ($14.45) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $13</font>, Hero calls $13

Results: $40.45 Pot ($2 Rake)
Hero showed A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (two pair, Aces and Jacks) and WON $38.45 (+$18.35 NET)
SB showed 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (two pair, Jacks and Sevens) and LOST (-$20.10 NET)

[WHITEBOYAEHS]

why dont i ever get the juicy tables??

[downrange]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call river as played versus this villain, though it's pretty close given his passivity.

[/ QUOTE ]
1.7 on 70 vpip is extremely aggressive; granted it's only 40 hands but this guy is either betting anything anywhere or folding a lot.

On the end I think this guy is either bluffing an inferior split/pocket pair using the rr flush or has 2x clubs or Th8h. I normally play limit but you need to be right here 1/3 and in an essentially readless situation the way the board has drawn up, I think you need better odds to make the call.

He makes a teensy-tiny flop donk, probably bets turn thinking you'll give up but he calls a big raise. Because he didn't reraise turn he doesn't have a J; if he doesn't have a J then he must have donked flop with an inferior split/pocket pair or heart draw. So on the turn he either picked up a 4-fl or str draw + 4-fl. If he's been b-f a lot I pitch this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

BB: $25
Hero (UTG): $42
MP: $27.30
CO: $10.75
BTN: $27.40
SB: $46.05

Pre-Flop: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $0.85</font>, 3 folds, SB calls $0.75, BB folds

Flop: ($1.95) J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $0.25</font>, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($2.45) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $2</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, SB calls $4

River: ($14.45) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $13</font>, Hero calls $13

Results: $40.45 Pot ($2 Rake)
Hero showed A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (two pair, Aces and Jacks) and WON $38.45 (+$18.35 NET)
SB showed 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (two pair, Jacks and Sevens) and LOST (-$20.10 NET)

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice.

I'm guessing you quoted my post so I could talk more? What do you want me to say?

[Numfar]

Bet the flop. Sure, this was the 1 in 10 time that he had nothing but usually the min-bet = FD or medium pair. He'll call your raise with the FD and looking at his numbers he'll often call with TT, 99 maybe 88 as well so just do it. You are protecting your hand and getting value from a worse one - that makes it by far the best option.

Don't make decisions based on what he might have and what he might do - make decisions based on his range.