NL 10 - Turned low flush, easy fold?

[orlov]

Villian is an astonishing 90/41/1.43 over 22hands.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt (http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Online-Poker-FullTilt.php#converter) Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($19.95)
CO ($9.15)
Hero ($11)
SB ($12.20)
BB ($2.25)
UTG ($13.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.45) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($0.45) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $0.1</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.6</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $13.35 (All-In)</font>, Hero ?

[DennisGPunkt]

I'd fold and wait for a better spot to bust him, althought i think he might do this with a str8 aswell as with any lower flush.

[willyc]

Yes, easy fold.

[BishopsFinger]

i am NEVER folding this.

[Nemesis69]

Why aren't you raising pf?

[BlueBear]

Call this. Folding is just unbelievably weak-tight.

Villain overplays ANY set, ANY two-pair, ANY straight. Against such an agro donkey, going all-in for massive value is the only option.

[hendal]

Fold, you're not invested yet and you could easily still be behind.

Pick a better a spot.

Ps. why did you call? preflop raise or fold.
Essentially you got a flush which you wanted with your cards and now you still don't know were you are.

[n4rf]

I'd fold at this point. Like above poster said, you don't have much invested in the pot, and you can pick another time. IMO, not worth the risk.

[Babalatexi]

"Villian is an astonishing 90/41/1.43 over 22hands."

Sure it's only 22 hands so the agression factor tells us nothing but he has seen 20/22 hands which means he's a moron. Because of that, I think he can have a lot of holdings here and I snap call. With those stats he can have anything and he probably thinks any flush is the nuts too, so you could even have a higher flush. Bottom line being that you can't fold the 4th nuts to a moron like this.

[Shattered]

There's no way he has a better flush often enough for you to fold this. Waiting for a better spot is really bad, how long do you think a 90 VPIP is going to stick around? Calling is obviously +EV and those chips are going to be donked off one way or another, might as well be to you.

[monkeymaps]

villan is agro monkey I dont see how you can ever fold this I mean what better spots are you looking for than this agianst someone this loose and agro?

and call me crazy but 6max Im not thinking about flush over flush much for 100BB

[castigar]

Wow. So many people say to fold this hand. You guys are way too weak tight. EASY call here. If he has it, too bad and reload.

[greggg230]

You don't even have a low flush. 9 high is 4th nuts here.

He's showing up with a set, A:clubs:Xx, or a lower flush often enough to insta-call this, without any regrets.

[orlov]

Mh alright, so general consensus is call?

oh and regarding preflop, why is calling so bad? dont suited connectors(well one gapper here) want multiway pots or am i way off now ?

[monkeymaps]

calling/rasing here are both fine. reason for raising these loose players is that it makes a bigger pot and makes it easier to win a huge pot when you hit with a SC. But at 10NL people stack of pretty light anyways so its not like it is an auto raise in this spot both are +ev IMO.

[Shattered]

Yeah, I think preflop is fine as well. Isolating yourself against a calling station with 9 high is iffy anyways, especially when they're willing to busto themselves in limped pots with weak holdings.

[friskyfleabag]

I'm definitely calling this, especially as the A/images/graemlins/club.gif is on the board

[bsball8806]

Wow, this is such an easy call. A 90/41? There's no way I ever lay this down. Add in the fact that there are only three hands that beat yours, and villain does this with a set, straight, or possibly even 2 pr (keep in mind, he doesn't put YOU on the flush, which in his mind makes it a good play to massively overbet the pot to keep you out). Don't you think a lower flush would make a more normal raise?

P.S I don't mind the call.

[Fazz86]

Anyone who says to fold is an idiot.

[mr.spam]

Easiest call ever? Even if he'ld have a flush, it's probably 3c6c or something...

[Milky]

Does anyone bet the flop here? Your IP and everyone's checked... this is usually an autobet for me.

[soded]

If you fold here... what was your reason for calling preflop? with 97s, you can't possibly be hoping for a straight flush, full house, quads? You called because you had position on both CO and UTG, where UTG is obviously not position aware... or hand aware for that matter. You're also looking for a flush, straight, or 2 pair at least to crush UTG. CO is out, UTG could even be semi bluffing with A(non club) X(clubs), there's too many hands that you beat, you're putting UTG on too small a range of hands.

Milky: I would bet out on the flop.

[RockRattler]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone bet the flop here? Your IP and everyone's checked... this is usually an autobet for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure I bet flop

and this is a call

[CrAcK_N_CoKe]

W.T.F.

SNAP CALL plz , i mean , real SNAP , like , break ur mouse.

[Dallas Dru]

this is def not a fold.. its a raise or call... with an aggro player like this his range could really be anything.. imo..... not a fold.. easy call for me to make in this spot

[Dallas Dru]

if you play weak tight like this all time you will be pushed out of every pot for fear of the nuts...

[fl1p]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone bet the flop here? Your IP and everyone's checked... this is usually an autobet for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure I bet flop

and this is a call

[/ QUOTE ].

[Lego05]

Why does this post have so many replies?


Calling or raising pre-flop are both fine.

I probably bet the flop....everyone checked + 12 outs, an 8 makes a straight as well as clubs making a flush.

Turn is of course a call with the fist pump being optional.

[CrAcK_N_CoKe]

Im playing NL25 for the most part but im also playing NL10 a lot , and i cant believe the numbers of people who want to fold this hand.Its unbelievable.Grow some balls plz.

I really dont want to be rude but you should quit 6 max to play full ring.

Its weird , i dont even know what to say for the strategy part.
Lets try...
You have a villain who is playing every hand for a small sample , its NL10 , you have a flush with only 3 clubs on board and no boat possible , this maniac shove and now you got a decision.And this decision is a call.

[greggg230]

I'm not betting this flop ever. You have almost no equity to gain from people folding (3 people on a drawy board). Even if everyone does fold, you'll win a small pot. It's much better to check behind and hope to spike a club that makes a good second best hand for one of your opponents - i.e. gives them bottom two, a straight, etc. In addition, you really can't take a substantial check-raise here; at least, you'd much rather not have to call one.

[orlov]

The idea of betting the flop is intereseting, i opted against it because it was a very loose table so i thought my FE would be close to 0 and building a pot with 9 high isnt really cool :P

[CrAcK_N_CoKe]

UTG got some combo-pair draws a lot of time

[CrAcK_N_CoKe]

Result???

[orlov]

[ QUOTE ]
Result???

[/ QUOTE ]
Result in white:

<font color="white">Hero calls $10.30, and is all in
Villian shows [Qc 8c]
Hero shows [9c 7c]
Uncalled bet of $2.35 returned to Villain
*** RIVER *** [Ts Ac Jc 2c] [Qd]
Hero shows a flush, Ace high
Villain shows a flush, Ace high
Villian wins the pot ($20.25) with a flush, Ace high

</font>

Just quick offtopic here:

Im more used to fullring and just recently switched to nl10 and lost like 11stacks over 1000hands, is that normal variance or am i just doing it wrong?

[greggg230]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Result???

[/ QUOTE ]
Result in white:

<font color="white">Hero calls $10.30, and is all in
Villian shows [Qc 8c]
Hero shows [9c 7c]
Uncalled bet of $2.35 returned to Villain
*** RIVER *** [Ts Ac Jc 2c] [Qd]
Hero shows a flush, Ace high
Villain shows a flush, Ace high
Villian wins the pot ($20.25) with a flush, Ace high

</font>

Just quick offtopic here:

Im more used to fullring and just recently switched to nl10 and lost like 11stacks over 1000hands, is that normal variance or am i just doing it wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not normal.

Obviously, any down- or upswing in poker can be the result of variance, but 11 BI in 1000 hands is really statistically unlikely at these stakes.

Question: How many of those 11 did you have one pair hands? IMO, overvaluing TP is one of the biggest leaks in microstakes.

[BevillTheDevil]

id probably either raise or fold pf. And how can you even consider foldin the turn, I snap call everytime.

[orlov]

[/ QUOTE ]

Not normal.

Obviously, any down- or upswing in poker can be the result of variance, but 11 BI in 1000 hands is really statistically unlikely at these stakes.

Question: How many of those 11 did you have one pair hands? IMO, overvaluing TP is one of the biggest leaks in microstakes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Looking at my PT stats, 5 buyins lost with one pair, just too used to everest NL10 where getting money in with tptk(or even tpgk is +ev since ppl are ready to stack off with tpnk or even midpar).
2.5 buy ins down with 2pair(one of those was 150bb top 2pair vs set all in)
And another 2buy ins from flushes(the one in this hand and another one where it was straight flush vs ace nutflush :P)

Guess if I ever play at full tilt again(done with pso bonus and blown all funds on there :P) ill have to adjust to less fishy players...

[greggg230]

maybe dig up some of those hands where you stacked off with TPTK and post them?

There are times when it's fine, and there are times when it's not. Distinguishing between the two is a huge skill for being a successful NLHE player.

[orange]

Bet the flop and instacall this turn shove.

[buttonpusher]

easy call IMO. villain is an over-aggro donk waiting to give his chips away, he just offered them to you, take them.

[Pokey]

A few comments:

1. Preflop play looks fine to me. Hero has the best possible position, a well-padded pot, and at least one incredibly loose fishy. With a highly speculative hand he decides to splash around. This isn't the time to go for a steal, since it's VERY unlikely to work. Much better is to simply play for hand value. Given that you're unlikely to steal but likely to get paid off if you hit I'd say calling is better than raising or folding.

2. On the flop I like the check behind. Are we REALLY thinking we're going to fold the lot of 'em? Anybody who calls us is going to have us beaten right now. Worse yet, anybody could be waiting for a check-raise which would blow us off our draw, or at least cripple our implied odds. If we had raised preflop a bet on this flop would be mandatory -- that ace would give us some boogeyman power to frighten off scared children. As it stands we're not likely to get respect for our "ace" and we're not likely to steal the pot. We'll have to hit to win, so we might as well take a free shot at it.

3. On the turn we've got a tougher decision than most people are implying. If villain is ONLY raising with flushes, we need to fold: we're a 9-to-5 dog against another made flush, here. People who are saying "we're only beaten by three hands" are wrong. Take a look: we see five clubs, so there are eight left in the deck. That's the K, Q, T, 8, 6, 5, 4, and 3. *IF* villain has a flush, he'd beat us with seven king-high flushes (KQ, KT, K8, K6, K5, K4, K3), six Q-high flushes, and five T-high flushes. He'd lose with four 8-high flushes, three 6-high flushes, two 5-high flushes, and the one 4-high flush. That means we're behind 18 flushes and ahead of 10 others. The pot is offering us 2.2-to-1 odds and we'd need nearly 3-to-1 for that to be a good call. *IF* villain has a flush. However, villain could have a number of other hands that we do very well against: straights, sets, two pair, nut flush draws, TPWK, or even pocket pairs that have decided to bluff (or semi-bluff) the flush. If villain has a weaker non-flush hand somewhere between 1/3rd and 1/2 of the time then the call is +EV. It's very hard to say if that's the case here, but given that he's raising 40% of his hands we can probably discount most of the suited kings -- that alone is enough to drop his winrate sufficiently to make this a +EV call. Yeah, I call this bet, but I'm not cheering -- I'm gritting my teeth as I do it. The good news is that if I lose the money will still be in play later, and I can get it back on another hand.

[well named]

That there's more combinations of flushes with higher clubs is one of those things that's obvious once pointed out but which I routinely miscalculate I think.

Pokey is pretty much the best poster ever.

[absoludicrous]

LOL, at the people saying they fold this turn....Jesus. Pay the man off if he has a higher flush. Raise PF, C-bet flop, insta-call turn shove, profit.

[wattascoop]

I'm calling against this villain. Against a normal player, I likely fold.

[Sense1ess]

I really don't like betting the flop here. Checking behind is the right play.

Super easy call on the turn.

[cunning]

If i was going to play this hand i would raise of the button pre. Villain has a huge range obv but i doubt he has a straight or pair of aces because kq or ace rag would have been raised pre with his stats. he could often turn over low 2 pair or even total air. against this villain i definately call.

[ICMoney]

I raise on btn pfr with everyone but one guy with full stacks. I'm willing to felt this flop in a raised pot.

As played, 20 people saw the flop in a limped pot. I'm not too excited after he min bets and then shoves.

I fold and don't feel a pang of guilt or regret.

[AFennewald]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is an astonishing 90/41/1.43 over 22hands.



[/ QUOTE ]
vilians like this do spazzy retared stuff all the time. This is an easy call.

[traxamillion]

this isn't a tournament you fish there is not better spot if it is +ev take it. You are certainly ahead of this fishes range.

[darther]

Against a 90/41/1.43 villian, I'm definitely snap calling