Be ready to BOTCOTT any bank or credit card co that caves

[DeadMoneyDad]

IMPO we shouldn't be lobbing Congress, the FED, or any agency on the proposed regulations.

The only people who can hurt us are the banks and credit cards companies.



D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[Uglyowl]

[ QUOTE ]
D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of the 20,000 or so financial institutions you think they are all evil? You are biting off your nose to spite your face not using a credit card (unless it is for self control reasons). I get 5% back for gas and groceries for doing an activity I would anyhow. A free $600/year and using their money for free for a few weeks is a great deal for me.

[Ron Burgundy]

BOTCOTT - is that where we boycott bots? Let's boycott banks AND bots!

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
BOTCOTT - is that where we boycott bots? Let's boycott banks AND bots!

[/ QUOTE ]



lol

[Ron Burgundy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of the 20,000 or so financial institutions you think they are all evil? You are biting off your nose to spite your face not using a credit card (unless it is for self control reasons). I get 5% back for gas and groceries for doing an activity I would anyhow. A free $600/year and using their money for free for a few weeks is a great deal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of the 20,000 or so financial institutions you think they are all evil? You are biting off your nose to spite your face not using a credit card (unless it is for self control reasons). I get 5% back for gas and groceries for doing an activity I would anyhow. A free $600/year and using their money for free for a few weeks is a great deal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh I have a wallet full of plastic cards that say VISA and MC on them but they are all tied to bank or securities accounts.


D$D<--loves margin!

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

Thus there's no way for you to have known that a large percentage of US issued credit cards have denied transactions to online gaming sites for at least 5 years. They self-regulated a long time ago because too many cardholders were disputing charges after they lost. When I first started playing online in '02, neither my Visa nor my Mastercard would allow the deposit, only my debit card worked.

[mntbikr15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of the 20,000 or so financial institutions you think they are all evil? You are biting off your nose to spite your face not using a credit card (unless it is for self control reasons). I get 5% back for gas and groceries for doing an activity I would anyhow. A free $600/year and using their money for free for a few weeks is a great deal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[/ QUOTE ]

Curious about number three, are you referring to your credit history or a credit card. If its your credit history...how can a good one not be something worth having?

[kayaker]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck if you ever want to buy a house or a car.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of the 20,000 or so financial institutions you think they are all evil? You are biting off your nose to spite your face not using a credit card (unless it is for self control reasons). I get 5% back for gas and groceries for doing an activity I would anyhow. A free $600/year and using their money for free for a few weeks is a great deal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck buying a house unless you have a ton of cash.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of the 20,000 or so financial institutions you think they are all evil? You are biting off your nose to spite your face not using a credit card (unless it is for self control reasons). I get 5% back for gas and groceries for doing an activity I would anyhow. A free $600/year and using their money for free for a few weeks is a great deal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck buying a house unless you have a ton of cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

1/3 down no doc loan. Good rate too.


D$D

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of the 20,000 or so financial institutions you think they are all evil? You are biting off your nose to spite your face not using a credit card (unless it is for self control reasons). I get 5% back for gas and groceries for doing an activity I would anyhow. A free $600/year and using their money for free for a few weeks is a great deal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck buying a house unless you have a ton of cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

1/3 down no doc loan. Good rate too.


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, they're doing no docs now with only 1/3 down? Not bad. When I was selling mortgages no docs needed at least 50% down.

[oldbookguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of the 20,000 or so financial institutions you think they are all evil? You are biting off your nose to spite your face not using a credit card (unless it is for self control reasons). I get 5% back for gas and groceries for doing an activity I would anyhow. A free $600/year and using their money for free for a few weeks is a great deal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck buying a house unless you have a ton of cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

1/3 down no doc loan. Good rate too.


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, they're doing no docs now with only 1/3 down? Not bad. When I was selling mortgages no docs needed at least 50% down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention all the 0.0% introductory deals good for a year and they allow balance transfers too.

Heck, my wife and I have not paid ANY CC interest in 3-4 years now.

obg

[frommagio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
D$D<--Hates banks and doesn't own a credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of the 20,000 or so financial institutions you think they are all evil? You are biting off your nose to spite your face not using a credit card (unless it is for self control reasons). I get 5% back for gas and groceries for doing an activity I would anyhow. A free $600/year and using their money for free for a few weeks is a great deal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck buying a house unless you have a ton of cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

1/3 down no doc loan. Good rate too.


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, they're doing no docs now with only 1/3 down? Not bad. When I was selling mortgages no docs needed at least 50% down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention all the 0.0% introductory deals good for a year and they allow balance transfers too.

Heck, my wife and I have not paid ANY CC interest in 3-4 years now.

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the hell would *ever* pay CC interest?

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Who the hell would *ever* pay CC interest?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's saying that he gets (and uses) 0% balance transfers (with no balance transfer fee), makes minimum payments, rolls the balances into new 0% balance transfer offers before the previous 0% rate expires, and repeats the cycle.

I've been rolling a balance for ten years. It's around $40K now, and I've never paid a late fee or interest charge. Basically, it's been a free loan.

[oldbookguy]

Exactly Engineer, and you earn bonus' too!

Right now we are remodeling and adding on, all % free via CC and earning $$$ towards a car as well.

It is all a game.

obg

[Ron Burgundy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck if you ever want to buy a house or a car.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bought my car w/ cash. I don't ever plan on buying a house.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a cc either.

1. I hate paying bills
2. I don't have any credit history
3. I don't need one

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck if you ever want to buy a house or a car.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bought my car w/ cash. I don't ever plan on buying a house.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't buy brand new cars either.



D$D

[Ron Burgundy]

Only fish buy new cars.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
Only fish buy new cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a great thought.

Now how do I hack into the DMV database and DL a list of all new car owners and sort for poker players........


D$D<--thinking really really hard..

[MiltonFriedman]

"IMPO we shouldn't be lobbing Congress, the FED, or any agency on the proposed regulations."

This is nonsense. At one point you were looking for some credibility with your suggestions. This is self-indulgent clap-trap. For someone with a claimed background in grass-roots political organizing, this suggestion is a curious one. Wholly unpractical and time-wasting idea.

[KingsFall]

I think we should go back to the good ol' days of using sea shells as currency. Who's with me?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
"IMPO we shouldn't be lobbing Congress, the FED, or any agency on the proposed regulations."

This is nonsense. At one point you were looking for some credibility with your suggestions. This is self-indulgent clap-trap. For someone with a claimed background in grass-roots political organizing, this suggestion is a curious one. Wholly unpractical and time-wasting idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention the fact that the banking industry doesn't want to get involved in this either.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"IMPO we shouldn't be lobbing Congress, the FED, or any agency on the proposed regulations."

This is nonsense. At one point you were looking for some credibility with your suggestions. This is self-indulgent clap-trap. For someone with a claimed background in grass-roots political organizing, this suggestion is a curious one. Wholly unpractical and time-wasting idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention the fact that the banking industry doesn't want to get involved in this either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone know where we might be able to pick up a bank, savings & loan, or credit union cheap?

Or does a Poker Player's Credit Union have a chance?

I'd put my name on the line. The think the law is unconstitutional and willing to back it up.

Once we have a bank on the system, if the FED, TD, or DOJ comes after me instant standing. If the system refuses to accept us in the network massive economic damages.


D$D<-- all worked up today.

[MiltonFriedman]

"D$D<--thinking really really hard.."


Moved up to higher stakes too soon.

[MiltonFriedman]

Ritilin, please.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
Ritilin, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you have anything stronger???


D$D's wife wants to know.

[MiltonFriedman]

She already knows.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
She already knows.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, 25+ years worth.


D$D<--often sleeps with one eye open....

[Coy_Roy]

[ QUOTE ]
"IMPO we shouldn't be lobbing Congress, the FED, or any agency on the proposed regulations."

This is nonsense. At one point you were looking for some credibility with your suggestions. This is self-indulgent clap-trap. For someone with a claimed background in grass-roots political organizing, this suggestion is a curious one. Wholly unpractical and time-wasting idea.

[/ QUOTE ]


With all due respect to D$D.....because I'm sure he's a nice guy.............it's become pretty clear this week that D$D is basically a self-aggrandizing post whore of the greatest degree.

The legislative forum was the one place at 2+2 where one could come and read clear concise (not always in agreement) opinions from some of the brightest minds.

With the exception of maybe Bluffthis's sometimes long winded and egomaniacal rantings, we never really had a post whore.
To the casual interested browser to this forum, that meant NOT having to wade through a bunch of crap to find the important things. It was all important or at the very least, informative.

The Engineer has dominated this forum lately, for the better good of us all. Not once did I see him post with even the slightest hint of ego or self promotion. He was far too busy posting important relevant information or drafting persuasive letters to movers and shakers to have the time to add clever (ridiculous) or witty self-aggrandizing signatures.

I hate to see this great forum get watered down with such tripe and I hope D$D will see this post for what it is.

[whangarei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"IMPO we shouldn't be lobbing Congress, the FED, or any agency on the proposed regulations."

This is nonsense. At one point you were looking for some credibility with your suggestions. This is self-indulgent clap-trap. For someone with a claimed background in grass-roots political organizing, this suggestion is a curious one. Wholly unpractical and time-wasting idea.

[/ QUOTE ]


With all due respect to D$D.....because I'm sure he's a nice guy.............it's become pretty clear this week that D$D is basically a self-aggrandizing post whore of the greatest degree.

The legislative forum was the one place at 2+2 where one could come and read clear concise (not always in agreement) opinions from some of the brightest minds.

With the exception of maybe Bluffthis's sometimes long winded and egomaniacal rantings, we never really had a post whore.
To the casual interested browser to this forum, that meant NOT having to wade through a bunch of crap to find the important things. It was all important or at the very least, informative.

The Engineer has dominated this forum lately, for the better good of us all. Not once did I see him post with even the slightest hint of ego or self promotion. He was far too busy posting important relevant information or drafting persuasive letters to movers and shakers to have the time to add clever (ridiculous) or witty self-aggrandizing signatures.

I hate to see this great forum get watered down with such tripe and I hope D$D will see this post for what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"IMPO we shouldn't be lobbing Congress, the FED, or any agency on the proposed regulations."

This is nonsense. At one point you were looking for some credibility with your suggestions. This is self-indulgent clap-trap. For someone with a claimed background in grass-roots political organizing, this suggestion is a curious one. Wholly unpractical and time-wasting idea.

[/ QUOTE ]


With all due respect to D$D.....because I'm sure he's a nice guy.............it's become pretty clear this week that D$D is basically a self-aggrandizing post whore of the greatest degree.

I hate to see this great forum get watered down with such tripe and I hope D$D will see this post for what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since we're calling people names you sound like one of the tighta$$ed East Coast button downed, my family has been here since it was even a country people, who don't know a joke if it sat on their face, and who's face would crack if they tried to smile.


D$D<--admits my sh.t stinks and doesn't try to claim its ice cream.

[LeapFrog]

Roy, here is a crazy idea:

if you want to get a point across, try not being an ass. Seriously, are you capable of civil discourse?

That said, D$D you have been a bit over the top lately.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
"IMPO we shouldn't be lobbing Congress, the FED, or any agency on the proposed regulations."

This is nonsense. At one point you were looking for some credibility with your suggestions. This is self-indulgent clap-trap. For someone with a claimed background in grass-roots political organizing, this suggestion is a curious one. Wholly unpractical and time-wasting idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is really gained by boycotting the NFL by not watching the games on TV?

The NFL doesn't care for a number of years how many people actually watch the televised games, until the TV rights are up for renewal.

You might have a little impact from going after a regular NFL game Advertiser, maybe....

The crux of this fight IMPO is what the banks and credit card companies do. If they take a tighta$$ed banker's apporach and try to over block, we are screwed until we get new Congressional action. If the Bankers Association or a major like VISA write a comment to back the proposed regulation, or come up with a procedure they think will pass muster and pubish it the rest of the banking community including the smaller banks will have to go along.

Right now it is a matter of leverage. Who do we try to move between now and Dec 12th, who if we get might give us the best result. Who is that?

If not the banks then whom?

If I wasn't afraid of crashing a poker site server, I'd suggest a virtual protest. Take a payment method you know will be declined send out an e-mail to everyone on the PPA's list some 800,000 people, pick a day and have everyone get their transactions declined. The bank's IT department will have the numbers. We make an impact for the "cost" of a mass e-mail.



D$D<--just a post whore, but I think outside the box.

[MiltonFriedman]

We have an opportunity to make comments on the Regs, lobby Congress, et cetera.

For you to say we should ignore that opportunity raises a real question about what you are trying to accomplish. Your offered alternative, a bank-boycott, is truly a stupid idea.

I do not think you are a stupid guy, so what is the goal you are aiming for ?

[whangarei]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not think you are a stupid guy, so what is the goal you are aiming for ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good work MF ... specifically request another D$D post /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
We have an opportunity to make comments on the Regs, lobby Congress, et cetera.

For you to say we should ignore that opportunity raises a real question about what you are trying to accomplish. Your offered alternative, a bank-boycott, is truly a stupid idea.

I do not think you are a stupid guy, so what is the goal you are aiming for ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Complete freedom to play poker on-line when and where I choose without having to pay some off shore middle man for the privilege.

Furthermore I'd like the PPA to be strong enough to one day perhaps take a crack at the F'ed up taxes on poker, the session accounting is madness, IMPO. Along with a 1/2 dozen other "next issues" beyond the UIGEA Law and regs. Honestly I think the PPA might be if it continues on it's past path a "one trick pony."


Clear enough?


D$D

[aislephive]

Boycotting banks and credit card companies is not going to do anything and will be a complete waste of time. Besides, banks that do cave to the regulations will be useless to Americans who play online, so they'll have to find another bank anyways.

Lobbying congress would be a much more effective route to take, unfortunately it is likely too late at this point to make any significant impact.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
Boycotting banks and credit card companies is not going to do anything and will be a complete waste of time. Besides, banks that do cave to the regulations will be useless to Americans who play online, so they'll have to find another bank anyways.

Lobbying congress would be a much more effective route to take, unfortunately it is likely too late at this point to make any significant impact.

[/ QUOTE ]


Forget the BOTCOTT!

Let's see if we can move the banks to tell the FED they don't want to play Congress' messed up game. That is where some of our leverage really is.

I never said only do this one action, write letters until you fingers bleed if it makes you happy.

If you all like staying at home, lets organize a letter writing campaign to the Banker's Association, I'm sure TE can whip up a nice letter in about 5 minutes.

Amer. Banker's Assoc. contact page! (http://www.aba.com/about+aba/abainfo.htm)

If that is all you think it is worth fine.


D$D<--really disapointed in the straight line tighta$$ed thinking here. Did I ask you for money or to have sex with your wife or daughter? I made a suggestion for Christ's sake.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you all like staying at home, lets organize a letter writing campaign to the Banker's Association, I'm sure TE can whip up a nice letter in about 5 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll leave this one in your hands. Good luck.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you all like staying at home, lets organize a letter writing campaign to the Banker's Association, I'm sure TE can whip up a nice letter in about 5 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll leave this one in your hands. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks a lot!

/images/graemlins/wink.gif


D$D

[Uglyowl]

[ QUOTE ]


If you all like staying at home, lets organize a letter writing campaign to the Banker's Association, I'm sure TE can whip up a nice letter in about 5 minutes.

Amer. Banker's Assoc. contact page! (http://www.aba.com/about+aba/abainfo.htm)

If that is all you think it is worth fine.



[/ QUOTE ]

ABA represent bank's interest, they already have their legal team looking into this and will decide what is best for them. Unlike politicians, we are not constituents, unlike banks, we are not customers. These two examples are hard enough to get through (I have been contacting John Olver for a year now and he represents my interests to no avail (yet))

IMHO you are barking up the wrong tree with a letter writing campaign, one letter won't hurt though maybe they will respond with their thoughts.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


If you all like staying at home, lets organize a letter writing campaign to the Banker's Association, I'm sure TE can whip up a nice letter in about 5 minutes.

Amer. Banker's Assoc. contact page! (http://www.aba.com/about+aba/abainfo.htm)

If that is all you think it is worth fine.



[/ QUOTE ]

ABA represent bank's interest, they already have their legal team looking into this and will decide what is best for them. Unlike politicians, we are not constituents, unlike banks, we are not customers /images/graemlins/confused.gif . These two examples are hard enough to get through (I have been contacting John Olver for a year now and he represents my interests to no avail (yet))

IMHO you are barking up the wrong tree with a letter writing campaign, one letter won't hurt though maybe they will respond with their thoughts. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/spade.gifIn one last futile attempt to fully explain and idea that while I admit it now it was not 100% fully formed nor 100% fully explained, does not have prior backing by anyone, was not the result of some pre-approved strategy throught up by any organization run by anyone, controled secretly or openly by seen or unseen hands, that just might work and might be fun for regular people to get involved in. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

<u>Lets start with defining strategy here.</u>

Between now and Dec 12th, who is our biggest nightmare, and who has the least to loose by doing what we fear?

If it is not the banks and credit card companies then who is it?

Is there no cost effective way to apply pressure on this group that we can think up and agree as a group might have a chance?

/images/graemlins/diamond.gifTo be clear before I deposted using e-pass, I called my banks customer service line and asked enough questions to get bumped up a number of levels. It was clear to me that bank didn't have a clue why it was doing what it was doing, they seemed to be following some one else's lead. While this bank is not a major it is not a local or even single state bank but a regional bank. /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

/images/graemlins/heart.gifPersonally I think some lawyer at corporate explained to the board that the only paper on the UIGEA Law was the sentencing guidelines for an infraction was FIVE years no questions asked, some board member asked what the down side was, the lawyer laughed and said none, and everyone that uses the same bank had on-line poker and gambling sites blacklisted for cerdit, debit, and automated on-line check clearing, I haven't tried a physical check I couldn't be bothered. /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Also the conversation I had with the banker took a little longer than it took to type out all of the responses both of mine and the ones crapping on the idea. The bankers' thoughts actually had more thought behind them IMPO.

<u>An honest question</u> , where were all of the oh so sharp anilitical nitpiccking tighta$$ed minds while the NLF boycott thread was happily growing merrily along unmolested? /images/graemlins/club.gifWhere was the same sharp people telling them they were wasting their time and PERSONAL energy? /images/graemlins/club.gif

Afterall the NFL is made up of team owners for the benifit of the team owners. None of us are "secret" NFL franchise owners are you? The action taken, not watching the Televised games, is indirect at best, they are appling presure on CBS, ABC, and NBC (ESPN is owned by ABC) even the NLF network is sold to cable/dish companies. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

A group of viewers or non-viewers as the case may or may not be are not constituents. We as a TV audience are not even a direct consumer the TV stations are! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

I don't mind getting flamed for doing something stupid. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

You all can't hold a candle to the glaring spotlight my wife can put on a minor mistake if properly provoked. As you can imagine it does happen from time to time. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Are you all collectively saying to all the lurkers who may have a decent but not fully formed idea that you want them to come back if and when it is fully formed? /images/graemlins/blush.gif



D$D&lt;--1/2 confused /images/graemlins/confused.gif, 1/2 convinced it was these "sig line" comments. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Uglyowl]

[ QUOTE ]
An honest question , where were all of the oh so sharp anilitical nitpiccking tighta$$ed minds while the NLF boycott thread was happily growing merrily along unmolested? Where was the same sharp people telling them they were wasting their time and PERSONAL energy?


[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I didn't think I'd have of any measurable impact to a billion industry, but it was the right thing to do. Hell I saved myself a couple hundred bucks in the process.

Banks are unwillingly thrown in the middle of this, so words like boycott seems way premature. NFL and banks are two different animals and should be treated as such.

You originally said that you were asking to speak to branch managers or whoever was in charge at the moment (assistant branch managers most likely). In my opinion that will get you close to nowhere. You are speaking to someone way down the food chain on an item that is not important to the organization.

Forget the individual branches, you need to get someones ear at the payment processors to explain the differences (Fidelity National Information Systems, Elan, MBNA, Union Financial, Inficorp, etc.)

[Tuff_Fish]

I agree that boycott talk is a bit premature. But it is very much in our interest to bring to the banking industry attention whatever downside to their interests we can uncover.

So writing to the banking associations and saying "You are being thrown in the middle of a bad thing for you" is probably worth some time. At the same time you could point out that they will be irritating some customers, and losing some money.

Tuff

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]

Forget the individual branches, you need to get someones ear at the payment processors to explain the differences (Fidelity National Information Systems, Elan, MBNA, Union Financial, Inficorp, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I did manage to get a VP for compliance on the phone today. Nice little former single state bank, now in 5 states, 4 big time and adding FLA in Dec.....

Family connections to the owner.

Currently they are not blocking all poker sites. But some whole countries due to fraud concerns. I have an old account that was almost dormant, since I couldn't get a straight answer out of him on which sites or which countries are on the list, I'm making a test deposit.

Funny thing was in customer service, up a few levels, they said they were not blocking poker sites, but I couldn't get an answer out of the VP, even after telling him what customer service said. But he admitted he had not read the proposed rule yet and said when he did he'd get back to me.

So maybe I found a bank to save me the e-pass fees at least for a little while.


D$D&lt;--not a bad find for a few minutes on the phone waiting for a tourney to start......

[oldbookguy]

A word on the banks.

1. For the most part, they are either:
a. Exempt (no relationship as stated in the regs)
b. Use a third party to handle transaction security

2. Banks that use option b., the numbers are likely correct, about 1 hour per year, for the bank.

The estimate cost problem is misstated however. Granted, banks use b above are going to have minimal actual work, the cost and hours NOT stated will be incurred by the companies they use thus costs will be greater than stated after all.

Now, to D$D (some may recall a previous long ago post), in speaking to my personal banker (a V.P.) they have no real interest in doing anything so long as I am not using a C.C.
If I am using a debit or ACH, they could care less (so stated to me) since the actual cash is mine to spend as I feel and is really not their business.

For those who recall, I was even coached in how to use On-Line Bill pay to deposit to any place that accepts it and receive a direct pay using the same system.

Bottom line, boycotting banks is not the answer, besides, if you are using a bank that blocks / fails to honor transactions, you will be changing anyway, I would expect.

You could let them know why, your money (cash) is yours and how you spend it is, well, your own business and none of theirs or anyone else’s for that matter (other than perhaps a spouse).

obg

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
What is really gained by boycotting the NFL by not watching the games on TV?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're taking a stand on general principle. The NFL has openly advocated against us, and has even worked with FoF for UIGEA (and worse legislation) and against IGREA.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is really gained by boycotting the NFL by not watching the games on TV?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're taking a stand on general principle. The NFL has openly advocated against us, and has even worked with FoF for UIGEA (and worse legislation) and against IGREA.

[/ QUOTE ]

But taking a little time to raise a stink and have a little fun tweaking bankers isn't a principled action?

If I find a bank that will let you deposit on-line with blocking you would you consider moving your account on principle?


D$D&lt;--Watches NASCAR as it is. Rerods some NFL games.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is really gained by boycotting the NFL by not watching the games on TV?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're taking a stand on general principle. The NFL has openly advocated against us, and has even worked with FoF for UIGEA (and worse legislation) and against IGREA.

[/ QUOTE ]

But taking a little time to raise a stink and have a little fun tweaking bankers isn't a principled action?

If I find a bank that will let you deposit on-line with blocking you would you consider moving your account on principle?


D$D&lt;--Watches NASCAR as it is. Rerods some NFL games.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can find a bank that actively lobbied against my right to play poker and teamed up with FoF, definitely.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is really gained by boycotting the NFL by not watching the games on TV?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're taking a stand on general principle. The NFL has openly advocated against us, and has even worked with FoF for UIGEA (and worse legislation) and against IGREA.

[/ QUOTE ]

But taking a little time to raise a stink and have a little fun tweaking bankers isn't a principled action?

If I find a bank that will let you deposit on-line with blocking you would you consider moving your account on principle?


D$D&lt;--Watches NASCAR as it is. Rerods some NFL games.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can find a bank that actively lobbied against my right to play poker and teamed up with FoF, definitely.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why fight a angry armed "sheep herder" when you can pick off some sheep that just followed along because they were herded in the "wrong" direction?

Heck we might convinve the sheep dogs their master is a fool!


D$D

[Gonso]

The banks don't really care all that much, excepting only the headaches they get with people disputing crap. For them it's just another thing they have to be in compliance with. You have to understand they're regulated, it's not that they're "caving in."

Get on your local congressman.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Why fight a angry armed "sheep herder" when you can pick off some sheep that just followed along because they were herded in the "wrong" direction?

Heck we might convinve the sheep dogs their master is a fool!


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

My friend's grandfather used to always angrily complain to the store cashiers about the prices. He felt good about it when he was done, as he "showed them". Prices didn't come down as a result.

IMHO, if I were to try to get some banks on our side, I'd open an account somewhere, get a transaction blocked, then close my account in person. I'd tell the bank manager that poker is legal, that they were wrong to block it, and that I didn't care for them monitoring my transactions in the first place. I'd then write to the bank CEO (and anyone else I could find) to complain further.

However, I've never had a transaction blocked by my bank, so I have no complaint. My ePassporte withdrawals hit within a couple of days of initiation, completely unmolested. They cash my checks fine as well. I'm not sure why my bank would owe me for ePassporte fees (FT covers my deposit fees anyway, not that I've made one recently; they don't cover yours?). After all, I believe FT will accept my paper checks, and they don't offer an e-check option. In summary, my bank hasn't rejected any of my transactions or limited me in any way.

As for credit cards, they don't wish to participate in any gaming because of issues with chargebacks. Even if it were explicitly legal, unless they were guaranteed payment by the legislation, they'd still not participate.

And, as for the proposed regs, you can be sure banking lobbyists were deeply involved in the process. Let bank know what we think, of course, but I'm not sure we can get a transaction blocked before Dec. 12. If anyone here does, we should jump on that as much as possible.

[JPFisher55]

The final regulations will not be put into affect until at least 90 and probably 180 days after Dec. 12, the end of the comment period. If the regulations are substantially amended because of comments, then the process could take into 2009.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
The final regulations will not be put into affect until at least 90 and probably 180 days after Dec. 12, the end of the comment period. If the regulations are substantially amended because of comments, then the process could take into 2009.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. My point was that, unless someone is getting non-credit card banking transactions blocked already, I don't think we'll have a chance to influence the regs via the comment process with the idea presented in the OP.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why fight a angry armed "sheep herder" when you can pick off some sheep that just followed along because they were herded in the "wrong" direction?

Heck we might convinve the sheep dogs their master is a fool!


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

My friend's grandfather used to always angrily complain to the store cashiers about the prices. He felt good about it when he was done, as he "showed them". Prices didn't come down as a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having to even use e-pass and not my own bank card is a "harm" regardless if FT ever refunds my e-pass fees. I've never heard of this! But it was my first deposit.

The fact my bank blocked my bank card in both credit and debit mode thus forcing me a higher cost for "business reasons" if not UIGEA fears is the key.

Every blocked transaction is logged in the IT system so there is a record for standing. Like I said if I wasn't worried about pissing off FT, I'd suggest we all pick a day like October 13th and spend it getting our bank card transactions blocked. I'm afraid if we e-mailed it and posted it all over the net we might melt FT's payment server... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

When I was young, my parents moved us to Eurpoe by the time I was 18 I had spent 1/2 my life overseas. We used to joke that mom had dragged us into every bazar and church from Tangier to Tehran and Trondhiem to Thebes (Karnak).

Heck I thought the tomatoes at the grocery store we too expensive and spoke to the produce manager yesterday. I got 8 pounds of beautiful tomatoes marked "culls" at $0.25 a pound, they were marked almost $4.

Yes Milton I have the receipt and will post it if it makes you happy.

All due respect to your grandfather, but no one taught him to offer a solution when he bitched to a merchant. If I think I can make a semi-reasonable argument to not pay the list price I make it. The worst thing they can do is tell me to F O! If I get the discount I just "made" that amount of money.

The last new car I owned I actually returned with in the 5 business days because I found a better price. I hate most new car dealers so I don't worry about the karma of F'ing with them. You have that kind of leverage when you pay cash.

In truth I am really worried about page 19 of the proposed rule. 2nd paragraph! This seems like a complete back channel communications. The way I read that is; "hey when in doubt block and you can say it was for business reasons!"

I suggest we make it clear that while some banks might have had some problems with gambling transactions, like the idiot woman wanting a refund because he SO spent money out of their joint account, we make it clear we should NOT be ignored. When I have a better grasp of the actual numbers I could make a better case. Anyone know what e-pass grosses a year or month? IMPO that money has been stolen from us. By the banks and Congress!

Right now we as poker players have rolled over and sat up everytime the Gov't said so. We've had some sites run away because they thought a bigger dog barked. Some stood up and stayed with us.

If the published numbers are even close for the on-line poker sites to make as much as is reported using basic economics the amount of times that profit has to move around is staggering before FT or anyone gets to cash a "net" profit check.

Even if less than half of that flow involves US banks we can make an impact.


[ QUOTE ]
And, as for the proposed regs, you can be sure banking lobbyists were deeply involved in the process. Let bank know what we think, of course, but I'm not sure we can get a transaction blocked before Dec. 12. If anyone here does, we should jump on that as much as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is the banks are already blocking legal transaction other wise e-pass wouldn't exist.

If you think one of those bankers has the concerns of a single poker player in mind while they are reading the regs or thinking of a "solution" I think you are in living in a dream world. (Is it nice there?)

IMPO we should make every effort to make as many of those bankers as uncomfortable as possible when they have their meetings to "craft" their response to the proposed regs.

We should at least try to let them see our point of view.

If we have to melt a few servers in the process so be it.


D$D

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The final regulations will not be put into affect until at least 90 and probably 180 days after Dec. 12, the end of the comment period. If the regulations are substantially amended because of comments, then the process could take into 2009.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. My point was that, unless someone is getting non-credit card banking transactions blocked already, I don't think we'll have a chance to influence the regs via the comment process with the idea presented in the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you that obtuse?

Why does e-pass even exist?

Can you currently use you bankcard to deposit directly to FT?

I can't.

The banks are already blocking.

If we wait until the regs are in force we are playing the banks and gov't's game!

Come on people work with me here....


D$D&lt;--resembling my new avatar!!!

[Coy_Roy]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does e-pass even exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

Epassporte exists to fill the needs that the credit card companies would rather not.

Pornography and gambling.

The credit card companies, not the banks.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why does e-pass even exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

Epassporte exists to fill the needs that the credit card companies would rather not.

Pornography and gambling.

The credit card companies, not the banks.

[/ QUOTE ]

So my Chevy Chase bank card doesn't, credit or debit, because Chevy Chase bank thinks FT is a porn site?

Where do you bank Riggs?


D$D

[Coy_Roy]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you bank Riggs?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, my main bank is BoA.

I made two successful deposits to Full Tilt using my BoA card just a couple week ago.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post12132189 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=inet&amp;Number=12132189&amp;Sear chpage=2&amp;Main=12130196&amp;Words=Coy_Roy&amp;topic=&amp;Search =true#Post12132189)

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The final regulations will not be put into affect until at least 90 and probably 180 days after Dec. 12, the end of the comment period. If the regulations are substantially amended because of comments, then the process could take into 2009.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. My point was that, unless someone is getting non-credit card banking transactions blocked already, I don't think we'll have a chance to influence the regs via the comment process with the idea presented in the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you that obtuse?

Why does e-pass even exist?

Can you currently use you bankcard to deposit directly to FT?

I can't.

The banks are already blocking.

If we wait until the regs are in force we are playing the banks and gov't's game!

Come on people work with me here....


D$D&lt;--resembling my new avatar!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not obtuse, but thanks for asking. Credit card companies don't process gaming transactions because it's not in their best interest, due to chargebacks. Banks won't process debit card transactions because of legislation passed in 2003.

Nobody said anything about waiting for the regs to be published before fighting back.

Maybe you could chill out a little. I hate to even mention it because you treat any negative commment as an insult without considering the reason behind it, but I have to say something. That's one reason why you're not getting as much traction here as you could. You came here from nowhere and informed us that you're from Washington and that you know more than we do. It seems you decided you could flood the forum with endless 5,000 word posts that are not to be questioned. Sorry, but we're a pretty independent bunch here. You can't order us to agree with you, and you can't push us around by calling us obtuse.

I'm glad your'e posting here...you give us a unique perspective. That being said, no one likes being pushed around.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Having to even use e-pass and not my own bank card is a "harm"....

[/ QUOTE ]

How is that a "harm" (in the sense of being able to sue for damages)? Banks are private businesses. They can choose what to process and what not to. I fully agree we should let them know how we feel about this and we should work to bring banks on our side, but your I strongly disagree with your suggestion that banks should be the focus of our fight.

[ QUOTE ]
Every blocked transaction is logged in the IT system so there is a record for standing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standing for what? Not a lawsuit against banks. They chose to not make the transaction. Seems that's their right, for better or worse.

It may be enough for standing against UIGEA, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
All due respect to your grandfather

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't my grandfather. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The last new car I owned I actually returned with in the 5 business days because I found a better price. I hate most new car dealers so I don't worry about the karma of F'ing with them. You have that kind of leverage when you pay cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

I negotiate prices all the time. I have yet to sue someone (or otherwise claim "standing") to force one.

[ QUOTE ]
Right now we as poker players have rolled over and sat up everytime the Gov't said so. We've had some sites run away because they thought a bigger dog barked. Some stood up and stayed with us.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're been fighting back for a while now. You berated every aspect of it (the letters to Congress, the NFL issue, etc), and now bring us this suggestion of complaining to our bank managers (without closing our accounts) by debating them. Have you ever convinced anyone of anything by proving them to be wrong? You keep trying it here, and all you've gotten are people who dig in their heels to justify their positions Typically, one would appeal to mutual interests to convince them of the correctness of one's position.

[ QUOTE ]
If you think one of those bankers has the concerns of a single poker player in mind while they are reading the regs or thinking of a "solution" I think you are in living in a dream world. (Is it nice there?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say they did, at all. Why would you think otherwise? In fact, I think the opposite. Our biggest risk is overblocking.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]

I negotiate prices all the time. I have yet to sue someone (or otherwise claim "standing") to force one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I stay out of court.

Lawyers have more tricks than witches.

Given my pursuasive skills/style I tend to piss off judges.



[ QUOTE ]
We're been fighting back for a while now. You berated every aspect of it (the letters to Congress, the NFL issue, etc), and now bring us this suggestion of complaining to our bank managers (without closing our accounts) by debating them. Have you ever convinced anyone of anything by proving them to be wrong? You keep trying it here, and all you've gotten are people who dig in their heels to justify their positions Typically, one would appeal to mutual interests to convince them of the correctness of one's position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never berated anyone for any action they took to support the cause of poker in any form!!!!!

When pushed into a corner, I did give my opinion, of the relative merits of each action.

I am a rabble rouser by nature. Some sort of sick combination of the middle child bit and growing up in the '60's. I think there isn't a power on this earth a group of dedicated people can't oppose and win.

Yeah I know I often come on too strong. I've been slapped around a good bit in my life.

I gave this a good bit of thought when I had my (1st??) mid-life crisis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis) When I looked back on my life I found that it works for me and I can accept the turmoil.

Perhaps it is just a matter or personal style. I draw a lot of heat initially, but I've found most people soon learn I am a really easy person to deal with over time.

Do I loose a few and make some enemies in the process?

Sure. But on balance I've come to grips with that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you think one of those bankers has the concerns of a single poker player in mind while they are reading the regs or thinking of a "solution" I think you are in living in a dream world. (Is it nice there?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say they did, at all. Why would you think otherwise? In fact, I think the opposite. Our biggest risk is overblocking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think styles aside, we agree much more than you think. If it is not completely clear, and internet communications are fraught with mis-understandings, I really totally respect everything you and all the others have done and continue to do.

Again just write off my scarcasm, or perhaps I should give up trying scarcasm on the 'net, as a style issue.


D$D

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
I gave this a good bit of thought when I had my (1st??) mid-life crisis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis)

[/ QUOTE ]

Dang, I thought we were going to get to share a good juicy tale here... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Tuff