Raising Limpers - Button

[ICMoney]

I often find myself on the button with two limps in front of me.

Assume 100bb stacks and each player will fold to CB 60%. Blinds fold 85% to steals. Players are standard for uNL.

Are you folding, limping or raising the following?

87s
A6s
KTo
A9o

Feel free to add any other hands.

[Berky]

I assume it's 6max. I raise all of them except maybe KTo, depends on the table.

[brandysbich]

With one limper I raise all of the above, with 2 limpers it depends on if they can let go of bottom pair OOP

[hallo!]

i will raise 78s and any higher sc,

but KT i will mostly muck, depending on what the limpers where like, fe if they have a very low PR.

A9 is close, but mostly raise, if i dont expect them to limp with At+, which not many do, but some

A6 = fold for me, i dont want to have tricky postflop situations because i suck

[john voight]

w/ 200bb i raise all usually.
dont really play w/ 100bb ever, so IDK.

[Lego05]

I raise all of 'em almost always.

[vixticator]

I'd prob fold A9o and raise the others.

[Nick C]

I haven't thought about this deeply, but I think you may have actually set up a situation where it's possible raising any two is profitable (assuming that in addition to the 60-percent fold to c-bet, we're not facing many preflop limp-reraises or flop 2/3-pot donkbets with air).

I mean, if, say, the blinds go away and both limpers call, we're going to take the pot with a c-bet ~ 36 percent of the time. That's about enough if you're betting 2/3 pot on your c-bet, and occasionally you'll make a hand in the meantime.

Those times you end up HU instead, the play basically seems automatically profitable.

But, of course, if you're constantly raising limpers from LP, people are going to try to adjust. So it's probably better to pick your spots and try not to be too obvious about what you're doing.

The table can begin to thwart this "raise the limpers" strategy by 3-betting lighter from the blinds and limp-reraising more from EP (and by tightening up, and by playing more chicken with you postflop), but if they aren't doing this much, then I guess you can get away with a lot.

One adjustment I think people do begin to make, though, is to open-raise in front of you instead of limping. I think they start to tighten up a bit too. Or they leave and are replaced by TAGs who are attracted by the stats your formerly good table was generating. So enjoy it while it lasts, I guess /images/graemlins/smile.gif. And then close that table when it turns sour and replace it with another one you can temporarily push around.

[Antinome]

87s plays fine multiway, I'm inclined to limp it because I mos def want to see a flop. The others depend if I think a raise will get it HU. if not, I'll limp them. Of course, in your scenario, raising is always profitable, but in reality in the micros I'm likely to be called in 3 places pre and twice on the flop.

[Perk76]

Out of those hands I am only going to raise 87s with 2 limpers in the pot. Even then it kinda depends on how often I think they will all fold. If the table likes to limp/fold alot then I might use a much wider range. Generally though they like to limp/call and I dont like to have ace rag when that happens, so I dump the aces. I dont mind the SC's since you can bet the flop and check behind on turn as needed the majority of the time hitting your draw and then get cussed out afterwards against someone that slow plays a set. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Pilket]

[ QUOTE ]
87s plays fine multiway, I'm inclined to limp it because I mos def want to see a flop. The others depend if I think a raise will get it HU. if not, I'll limp them. Of course, in your scenario, raising is always profitable, but in reality in the micros I'm likely to be called in 3 places pre and twice on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The implied odds of when you hit your SC go dramatically up if you raise with it PF and get callers, especially if you have the image of being a nutty-mcnutbar (like I usually do). In the situation that you described, with the callers folding a lot to a CB it makes it that much more profitable.

And if you miss the flop with your SCs it brings up the possibility to float it against the right opponents, or fold to massive aggression without costing you too much (6BB assuming standard raise).

Pilket

[gbporkpie]

Against calling stations overlimp, against nits raise. If they players are solid-ish probably raise all of them though some are marginal.

[Frosteater]

Personally I'd raise all of your examples most of the time. This is because I want to establish my button as kind of a "tollbooth" as early as possible. In my opinion stealing blinds is really profitable and can make you at least breakeven, even during a run of horrible cards. By raising limpers on the button I'm doing my best to communicate this, while limpers don't really have to face any punishment if I just limped along. On top of that you should have an edge over your typical opponent just by reading this forum and applying what you learn, you're likely to have an edge because your cards are decent and you're not going to misplay them grossly postflop and you have an edge because you're in position. So I think if you have a playable hand, it can't be a huge mistake to raise it from the button, since I think with all those edges you're pretty much a favorite to win this hand.

I can see an argument for overlimping with 87s, but I still favor the raise. My reasons for that might be wrong, since they come from personal experience and amateur-ish analysis, but I see it this way:

If you don't hit the flop, it's hard to take the pot down, since it's multiway and you showed no strength preflop. If you hit the flop, you need others to hit it as well to build a big pot. You're also more likely to get "overflushed", since you allowed suited Aces/Kings/Queens to enter the hand cheaply, whereas in a raised pot you're more likely to face pocket pairs and big broadways as your opponents, in other words hands that don't necessarily contest your made hand. I think this is a major advantage of suited connectors in raised pots, you make hands that your opponents are unlikely to beat. Finally, and this is more a guess than an observation, I'd imagine your fold equity with pushing combo draws to be very low in multiway pots. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing (if it's the case, at all), but it probably adds lots of variance and makes these hands harder to play.

Okay, the last paragraph isn't a short one, but I think it's good reason for raising the above hands preflop. In case of tl;dr, cliffnotes: Keeping up a lot of pressure can throw casual players completely off their game.

Another point to consider is what kind of players you're against. I know you stated that in your OP, but the thing with stats is you don't necessarily know how and in which circumstances your opponents achieved them. The typical uNL opponent, which you mentioned your opponents in these examples to be, is more of a recreational player that doesn't necessarily base his decisions on logic, even less poker strategy. Because of this I think a very tight player can actually get more action than an aggressive player with a wider preflop range. While we would assume the tight player to have very strong hands once he decides to play and more likely than not stay out of his way, I believe the more casual player has a tendency to think of the tight player as a "minor threat", since he's not really a dominant force that bullies the table, and the cost to enter a pot against him as a "minor investment", because the tight player simply isn't going to play a lot of hands and even if the casual player decides to play every pot with the tight player, it's no big deal financially if he can avoid paying him off every single time. On the other hand, if you raise a lot preflop, I think a casual player has a tendency to stay out of your way, because he realizes that it won't be cheap to play with you often and he's going to face a lot more difficult decisions against you and most people just don't have much fun facing difficult decisions against aggressive players, which is counterproductive to the reason they play in the first place. I think a big distinction between a casual and a more "educated" player is that one of them is process-oriented and the other one results-oriented. Which is understandable, because to a lot of players the game is not more than pasttime fun and the money they bring to the table is hard-earned one, so an aggressive environment makes them pay more money for less recreational value. The results-orientated solution is actually to contest less pots against you, even though you're less likely to have a hand compared to the tight player, simply to avoid difficult decisions and get more recreational value for their money. In a way you're educating the casual player to play more adequate preflop and I actually think this is exactly what you want, because their postflop abilities are still likely to be inferior to yours. This means that you can take down a lot of pots preflop or on the flop and still make profit postflop, because your opponents either decide to take a stand with AJ on an Ace high board against your AK, stacking off in the process, or trying to trap you with a monster while you control the size of the pot and can get away cheaply while you're behind.

[traz]

This really depends on table dynamics for me, mostly how often those players would raise/fold vs raise/call.

When I raise with KTo, I really do want all of them to fold. Most of those hands really become semi-bluffs.

I'm most inclined to raise 87s, mostly because it'll play the best multway and there's less chance of being dominated (ppl will limp call weird Ax hands all day).

But yea, the flow of the game really makes a difference here.

[wslee00]

I call the first two, fold the last two. You most likely will see a flop w/ two limpers, and I don't like playing either KT or A9 in a raised pot.

W/ one limper, I raise all 4, since you can usually pick up the dead money pf.

[Kasane]

I raise the first two. KT I overlimp, but only on the button. A9os, I raise or fold, depending on how I've seen limpers play.

I'm going to get flack for overlimping KT from a lot of good players. I only overlimp this on the button itself, and I assume we have fairly passive blinds too. KT is a hand that never, ever plays a big pot easily -- but it plays small pots just fine. We can control pot size fairly easily from the button, and we can use the position to take pots even if we miss the flop.

You have to be real comfortable post flop to overlimp and to know why you're doing it to make it work. I don't have any problem with anyone saying fold it or raise it.

My philosophy on this is pretty straight forward. I raise limpers with hands that play big pots well when they hit, and small pots well when they miss. pp's, suited connectors, Ax suited -- these all fit that criterion. KT doesn't. A9 doesn't. These are small pot hands that need to get to showdown cheap if they hit modestly.

[monkover]

i´m raising all of them depending on table image etc. obv if i´ve been running hot and running over the table i won´t try to raise limpers with atc

[kash munni]

I open all except K10o... if i haven't been active at the table I will open K10o and if i have been more active than usual I will limp or raise less w/ 87s to build a big multi-way pot.

[monkeymaps]

this really depends on the players in the hand if they are stations then rasiing with most of those hands kinda sucks cause a c-bet/chances of taking it down right there are highly diminished. and hands like KT/A9 in that spot are kind of tricky to just raise for value in those spots.

87s I usually limp but sometimes raise. alot of players stack of pretty light at uNL so dont think you always have to raise to make your implied odds better.

[DaycareInferno]

with two limps. i raise the first two, and fold the last two. with one limp, i raise all of those, assuming the same stats. its not really something i put a lot of thought into though, but it seems to work alright.

[DonManuel]

I'm only raising 87s. Calling with A6s. Folding the rest, although A9 is borderline; I'm definitely raising with ATo

[Waingro]

In the example outlined above it is obv profitable to raise all of them. If my opponents are the typical loose passive that tries to limp in with trash but somehow have picked up that K7o is not a premium hand, this is gold. However if my opponents are psychotic calling stations, high card value goes up for KTo and A9o and the semi-bluffing opportunities with 87s and A6s goes down. With 87s you are looking at 8 high a lot of the time come the river, since you are essentially playing showdown poker. And if villains are tight and passive, mucking A9o and KTo looks a lot more attractive, since you will often face domination.

[HBomb]

I do not agree with most of you in raising with hands like A6s and A9o in position, however I do find it more probable that hands like 87s and K10o will become more profitable in the long run because of their ability to make more hands and straights. The A6s is definitely a high percentage winning hand, but not 3-4 handed, if it was down to battle of the blinds, yes, but not in this case, I suggest over limping.


And to Frosteater, next time you raise me, I am not paying your toll booth! You hear me!?

[ryang]

limping is so bad, i'm raising 87s, folding the rest.

[Mr_Pathetic]

what you raise them with depends on what you expect them to call you with. If I know they're going to call me with any queen any king or any ace then I will raise a huge range of hands that are not likely to be dominated. So that would be suited aces big off suit aces some suited connectors preferably of the number variety. If we are deep then I'll shift almost exclusively to hands that can make huge hands like off suit connectors or suited one gap or two gap.