Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers

[You're No Daisy]

Thank god I'm practicing bankroll management or I'd be busto. Don't laugh because I'm playing penny poker. I was at $40 and now I'm down to $22. This downswing has occurred over the last 1500-1700 hands (just about 2 weeks).

Villain is 49/20/1 over 100 hands in this particular session. I am 28/7.9/3.8 over 6,700 hands. For some background info, I am very aggressive on the button when it's folded around to me. I will typically raise with any two cards and put out a continuation bet at a passive table. However, the blinds at this table were defenders but passive postflop so I decided to limp with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Also, I got a read on villain where he raises with junk and limps or sometimes minraises with hands like AA-JJ. I had seen him play draws very aggressively and slow play a monster on a draw heavy board. Finally, he's one of those donks where if he catches any piece of the flop he will call down to the river. This is where I'm currently having issues. Villain plays 50% of his hands so do I assume he's got a weak hand or a draw? Do we really know where we stand in situations like this where villain plays 50% of his hands. It seems like anything falls within his range. How do we play against these types, do we tighten up and trap, or do we push marginal advantages?

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.01./$0.02.
4 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $0.73
Hero: $2.04
SB: $1.16
BB: $2.94

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($0.06, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $0.06</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $0.24</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

I decided to just call because I figured I have two pair and he might have AK-A8 or KJ-J9, or a flush draw. Should I have shoved? Like I said before this guy takes any piece of the flop to the river. But he plays his draws aggressively so I put him on a flush draw. His flop AF is 1.75 (turn and river AF get progressively smaller). I was debating shoving but I was a little gun shy because I had just gotten stacked at a different table, so I decided to call. Was this my big mistake?

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.54, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB is all-in $0.9</font>, Hero ???.

I ran the numbers on poker stove and it looks like I was quite a bit ahead of his range:

Board: Ac 8s Js
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.154% 63.59% 00.57% 86242 770.00 { Jh8h }
Hand 1: 35.846% 35.28% 00.57% 47848 770.00 { A2s+, KJs, QJs, J9s+, A5o+, KJo, QJo, J9o+ }

Comments/Criticism are VERY welcome

AC

[PJo336]

lol at sample size

edit: reraise flop, too many draws allowed in if u flatcall

[corsakh]

1700 hands downswing? Wow.

[mookboi]

Do not ever open limp preflop. Especially four handed. This is just bad. Especially on the button. Raise here.

You flopped a monster! ZOMG! The board is drawy! 3bet, try to get all the money in on this flop!!

Turn is not a spade, doesn't really complete any draws, basically a blank! Get it in!!

[KEW]

Based on your read shove the flop..

General comments...Tighten up your spread between VP$IP and PFR%..With a PFR number of 8 I find it very very very hard to believe you are abusing the button in the fashion you say...OTOH If your are raising the button liberally your position play is horrible...Far to much limp calling and or calling raises...Limp calling is lighting money on fire...

I would suggest you post your stats(general and position stats) in the thread you seem to have some major leaks in your pre-flop and position play..

[You're No Daisy]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on your read shove the flop..

General comments...Tighten up your spread between VP$IP and PFR%..With a PFR number of 8 I find it very very very hard to believe you are abusing the button in the fashion you say...OTOH If your are raising the button liberally your position play is horrible...Far to much limp calling and or calling raises...Limp calling is lighting money on fire...

I would suggest you post your stats(general and position stats) in the thread you seem to have some major leaks in your pre-flop and position play..

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks KEW...Here you go...

General Stats over 6,740 hands
=================================
VP$IP: 28.13
VP$IP from SB: 40.91
PFR: 7.91
Flop AF: 4.19
Turn AF: 3.44
River AF: 2.86
Total AF: 3.77

Position Stats (Total Hands/VP$IP/ColdCall%/PFR
================================
Button: 1330/36.77/3.76/13.38
1 (Cutoff): 1217/26.29/2.05/7.31
2: 1017/25.27/0.20/7.96
3: 546/24.91/0.00/8.61
BB: 1327/12.13/0.00/4.60
SB: 1303/40.91/0.00/5.91 &lt;--- The VP$IP might be a leak???

Let me know if this is what you're looking for. How can I tell in PT if I'm limping and then calling a raise to much? I there a filter for this? Thanks in advance.

AC

[Quester]

We need to get the easiest issue out of the way first - you are limping in with too many hands preflop. Your VPIP is too high and your PFR too low. You need to learn to tighten up and raise with position. In your example hand, you should raise before the flop! You have great position with a limper in front of you. Position = Value.

[guitarizt]

Easy raise preflop, get it in on the flop. As played instacall turn everytime.

[You're No Daisy]

[ QUOTE ]
We need to get the easiest issue out of the way first - you are limping in with too many hands preflop. Your VPIP is too high and your PFR too low. You need to learn to tighten up and raise with position. In your example hand, you should raise before the flop! You have great position with a limper in front of you. Position = Value.

[/ QUOTE ]
A few questions...

1. My VPIP in general, or my VPIP from the button, or both are too high?
2. What is a good VPIP range for a good semi-loose aggressive player. I'm hearing between 20% - 25%
3. Should I be raising the button everytime it's folded to me no matter what two cards I have?

AC

[You're No Daisy]

[ QUOTE ]
Do not ever open limp preflop. Especially four handed. This is just bad. Especially on the button. Raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi mookboi,

Are you saying never limp in 6-max ever, or never limp from the CO and button? I love playing suited connectors and small pocket pairs (as we all do). I typically limp from early postion with them. Are you saying I should raise with these hands from EP instead of limp?

I find myself limping with suited connectors and small PPs from early postion and calling reasonable sized raises with them. As KEW pointed out, maybe this is a leak. That's why I'm posting again because I want to close some of these before it gets out of hand. Thanks in advance.

AC

[Joefish126]

I will never limp from early position. If I flop a huge hand in a limped pot chances are I won't win much. If I flop a draw I will have to play it out of position. When I raise I can take down the blinds, and create the right image so that when I hit big i can get paid off.

I raise any pocket pair from any position. The answer to most your questions can be found in the excellent 6-max fundamentals thread in the sticky.

[jerryf1914]

ok i'm going to contradict everything in this thread. having a pfr that is only slightly less than your vpip is a recipe for disaster at &lt;=10nl. an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe. at 10nl and less you have to take advantage of how little most of the players care about what happens. but as you would at a higher limit and have to still take advantage of position. if you can play the button for 1bb you should do it everytime and then look to make a bet on the flop if no one seems to want the pot. and don't get discouraged by downswings there simply is no way to avoid them.

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Based on your read shove the flop..

General comments...Tighten up your spread between VP$IP and PFR%..With a PFR number of 8 I find it very very very hard to believe you are abusing the button in the fashion you say...OTOH If your are raising the button liberally your position play is horrible...Far to much limp calling and or calling raises...Limp calling is lighting money on fire...

I would suggest you post your stats(general and position stats) in the thread you seem to have some major leaks in your pre-flop and position play..

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks KEW...Here you go...

General Stats over 6,740 hands
=================================
VP$IP: 28.13
VP$IP from SB: 40.91
PFR: 7.91
Flop AF: 4.19
Turn AF: 3.44
River AF: 2.86
Total AF: 3.77

Position Stats (Total Hands/VP$IP/ColdCall%/PFR
================================
Button: 1330/36.77/3.76/13.38
1 (Cutoff): 1217/26.29/2.05/7.31
2: 1017/25.27/0.20/7.96
3: 546/24.91/0.00/8.61
BB: 1327/12.13/0.00/4.60
SB: 1303/40.91/0.00/5.91 &lt;--- The VP$IP might be a leak???

Let me know if this is what you're looking for. How can I tell in PT if I'm limping and then calling a raise to much? I there a filter for this? Thanks in advance.

AC

[/ QUOTE ]


I am sure what I am going to say has already been said(I went to play a session)...

You need to tighten up and increase your PFR%...You are playing far far too many hands OOP...Limping into the pot is a bad idea..Standard raise is 4XBB + 1BB per limper..There is no reason to play this many hands at this limit..

I am confused by you post flop aggression figure..How can you be so passive pre-flop but then go wild(compared to PF) after the flop...Limping in as often as you do I can not see you hitting enough flop to justify those post flop aggro numbers...

Number #1 most important lesson in NL is the importance of position...Hands that are unplayable from EP are easily +EV from LP...

When just learning the game you are much better off playing fewer hands..The number 1 reason new low limit player lose is they simply play to many hands..I would suggest you tighten up to about 18%..Greatly increase your opening raises and ATT to Steal #...

[ICMoney]

Does not compute.

[ QUOTE ]
I am 28/7.9/3.8 over 6,700 hands. For some background info, I am very aggressive on the button when it's folded around to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ICMoney]

Am I reading this right?

It is 4-handed and you open limp the button??

You lost less than 100bb with two pair when there were two flush draws out.

No big deal.

[finalboarder]

[ QUOTE ]
ok i'm going to contradict everything in this thread. having a pfr that is only slightly less than your vpip is a recipe for disaster at &lt;=10nl. an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe. at 10nl and less you have to take advantage of how little most of the players care about what happens. but as you would at a higher limit and have to still take advantage of position. if you can play the button for 1bb you should do it everytime and then look to make a bet on the flop if no one seems to want the pot. and don't get discouraged by downswings there simply is no way to avoid them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with you on this one. My stats are around 22/17/2.83 and I'm doing very well at 10NL and killed 2NL. Think I'm about ready to move up to 25NL. Limping that much in 10NL doesn't allow you to win much money from those people that don't care what happens when you actually hit a hand.

[You're No Daisy]

Are you talking about Tien's "Some 6max Fundamentals" post? If so, I just read it and man, it was an eye-opener! I now realize I'm playing way too loose passive preflop. No more open limping for me in LP.

AC

[Perk76]

Drive the bus rather than ride the little yellow bus to school. That means RAISE RAISE RAISE. Seriously your preflop raise should be way over half your VP. 24/20, 22/18, 16/12, 45/30...what ever you decide to play you need to be raising hands and putting pressure.

If you can't raise certain hands due to position or table conditions, then dont play it. Playing limp along is not going to win you large enough pots to equal out against the times you miss. When you are the preflop raiser you have so many different ways to win the hands post flop. Using position you are controlling the table that hand. Become the driver and not the rider, the game gets ALOT easier!

[whyzze]

you have a long way to go young grasshopper. You will get there. I am sure a vast majority of us started out like you. I know I did.

[Perk76]

[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[wslee00]

put more money in! you can definitely afford to put in at least 50 more no?

[Bowlboy]

I have'nt played any online poker in a few months now because of problems with my marriage, though my marriage is over now so I think I'm going to get back into it.

When I first started a year ago playing NLHE on Stars i played .01/.02 and cleaned up over a really decent sample for something like 40bbl/100. That is no joke. Stars 2cent tables play at 250bb deep though a lot of people buy in for stupid amounts anyway. I read tiens 6max fundamentals right when I started playing. I think his recommendations for preflop are a little too tight 10 or 25NL but at 2cent they are just fine. I played super tight and usually ran about 14/10.

The level of play is so bad that there should be no need for anykind of fancy play. You could play a laggy style profitably at that level by outplaying everbody postflop, though for me it was far easier to play like a nit, super straightforward both pre and post flop, which allowed me to play 9 tables at once. Pretty much every bet you make at this level should be a value bet. Stealing blinds is less profitable because you will so often need to showdown a hand to win a pot. You're money at this level should simply come from getting you're TPTK and better hands paid off. Against like 90% of the players there TPTK should be played for stacks.

It's boring poker but it wins the money at that level. Ideally you want to power through it as quickly as possible because the level of play is so stupid.

If you can, I'd recommend that you grind these nano limits on stars because I'm pretty sure that the rake is the best there and the 2cent and 5cent tables are deep stacked which increases your profits on your big hands, which is really where the money is going to come from. Stealing blinds there is meh, because most of the time you cant steal. Same goes for cbetting at whiffed pots because most of the are at least 3 way. If you play super tight you can play more tables and when you hit your big pairs and sets you make your money.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am telling him what works. i would know since i have played more 10nl than anyone. stopping playing tag is the best thing that ever happened to my game. besides i only have 1 guy in my 10nl db with a solid wr playing a tag style and several people with solid wr who are not playing tag.

[BevillTheDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am telling him what works. i would know since i have played more 10nl than anyone. stopping playing tag is the best thing that ever happened to my game. besides i only have 1 guy in my 10nl db with a solid wr playing a tag style and several people with solid wr who are not playing tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

lololololol this is the worst advice EVAR!! Thats WHY you have played more 10NL than anyone else!!!!!lolololol...obv there arent many winning tags at 10NL cause they get better and move up LDO and the ones that are there for a long period of time suck postflop!!! this could be 1 of the most redic threads ive read in a while lolololol

i hate to come off as a dick but COME ON THAT IS HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE ADIVCE!!!!

[kurto]

I actually don't have a problem with Jerry's advice necessarily... I choose tables all the time where TAG isn't ideal.

I love tables where 3-4 players are seeing over 50% of all flops and never fold anything. Furthermore, they are passive preflop.

I seek these tables out. At these tables, raising with speculative hands is costly because you rarely take hands down with cbets and pretty much never steal blinds.

Under these conditions, you can and should see more hands from more positions as cheaply as possible.

I can't say if the $10 tables are good for this style of play since I don't play there... but I've played $25 and $50 tables where I've switched from TAG to loose/passive because the table dynamics called for it.

[BevillTheDevil]

wow ive never seen table dynamics that call for playin like 35/3 like jerry advices ...wtf that is just ludacris. plz explain kurto.

The table dynamics you give im playin my standard 22/20ish style all day.

[Nairb]

Jerry do you paly on PS? What days and times and a screen name would be helpful.

Thanks

[monkeymaps]

dont think Kurto means to play that loose/passive (30-40/3/)
but just that sometimes against horrible opponents that see tons of flops and dont fold to pfr's and dont fold to c-bets you can adjust by just seing alot of flops and value betting them to death when you make a hand. these type of players will call off alot of their stacks in unraised pots anyways so you dont have to raise as much.

game conditions arent like this that often online IMO though, maybe just like fri/sat night.

These concepts do apply more in Live FR NL games at most casinos though were players are just terrible and I think you could win by just limping often and only raising jj+ and AK and turn a good profit.

[kurto]

I must admit I'm surprised that you haven't seen or can't picture the appropriate dynamics.

There are many reasons to raise pf:
(1) you likely have the best hand
(2) steal blinds/pot
(3) buy position
(4) isolate a player
(5) disguise the value of your hand
(6) increases ability to steal flop with c-bet
(7) increase chances of playing for stacks

If the table is filled with shortstacks who aren't going to fold their limping hands to your positional raise AND won't fold postflop if they hit anything... a lot of hands that you would raise to steal blinds now become fold OR limps.

If raising doesn't ever steal blinds, then I don't raise to steal blinds as much.

If raising will never buy you the button, then I don't raise in that instance.

If raising never isolates because 2-3 people still call, then stop raising simply to isolate.

On the other hand, Hands that you would normally fold utg, like suited aces and such, become more playable if you know 4 people are going to see a flop and no one will raise it (or if they do, they raise it 1bb)...but will pay you with their entire stack if you hit.... limping becomes viable.

If I have the button and have 78s, and there are 4 limpers, I'm not raising preflop. Because I'm rarely going to be able to steal on the flop and I'm rarely going to flop huge. That being said, If I flop 2 pair and anyone else has top pair... I'll make a decent pot.

I've been at too many tables where I'm making positional raises quite often, I get 3-4 players to the flop and can't cbet because the players either bet into the field (I missed) or will checkcall down with any pair, any draw, etc.

In these cases, where the play post flop is bad, and the whole table allows everyone to see cheap flops... I can raise my good hands for value, and take speculative hands cheaply... believe me, no one's noticing that I'm raising my good hands and limping with suited connectors.

Don't get me wrong, I usually vary anywhere from supernit (18/9 to 25/13)... but I've found many a table where I gladly switch to playing 33/5

[Nairb]

I think you left out the most important reason to raise PF, to gain information about other hands you are up against. YOu mention suited Aces. Lets say you play Ad 7d and the flop comes A 10 8 rainbow without a diamond. If you limp anyone could call with A 8 and up and you are dominated and with no info a beginner will spew with TPWK at the micros. May work for you but is not good advice to give someone who is already struggling.

Most of the people I see that complain their Aces and Kings always get cracked limp with them and with pairs you are begging to get drawn out on without narrowing down the number of players in the pot.

I hope to see a 35/5 at my tables tonight. Good luck all.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am telling him what works. i would know since i have played more 10nl than anyone. stopping playing tag is the best thing that ever happened to my game. besides i only have 1 guy in my 10nl db with a solid wr playing a tag style and several people with solid wr who are not playing tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

lololololol this is the worst advice EVAR!! Thats WHY you have played more 10NL than anyone else!!!!!lolololol...obv there arent many winning tags at 10NL cause they get better and move up LDO and the ones that are there for a long period of time suck postflop!!! this could be 1 of the most redic threads ive read in a while lolololol

i hate to come off as a dick but COME ON THAT IS HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE ADIVCE!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

ever think that maybe i choose to stick to 10nl is because i just don't feel comfortable playing with more money in front of me?

[ QUOTE ]
dont think Kurto means to play that loose/passive (30-40/3/)
but just that sometimes against horrible opponents that see tons of flops and dont fold to pfr's and dont fold to c-bets you can adjust by just seing alot of flops and value betting them to death when you make a hand. these type of players will call off alot of their stacks in unraised pots anyways so you dont have to raise as much.

game conditions arent like this that often online IMO though, maybe just like fri/sat night.

These concepts do apply more in Live FR NL games at most casinos though were players are just terrible and I think you could win by just limping often and only raising jj+ and AK and turn a good profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the crux of the issue. unless you are running hot as balls you are not going to make a hand often enough to turn a profit if you raise pf so often.

[BevillTheDevil]

Ok good argument but jerry wasnt sayin "under these conditions play loose/passive" he said thats basically this is the style to always go w/ which i 100% disagree w/. And some of the examples you give like the shortstack table...switch tables, you shouldnt be playin w/ a table full of shorties (but maybe this is just preference). I also think the preference thing comes into play sometimes too when it comes to limping. Personally I HATE limping. It can sometimes be more +EV but more often than not it isnt.

I figured the table dynamics you'd give for your argument are pretty much exactly what you did give, but to change your style to loose/passive the table conditions have to be at an extreme which IMO dont occur often enough to really worry about it. And basically giving this advice to a strugglin 2NL player is awful b/c switchin your style like this becomes a little more complicated and a bit above his skill level IMO (no offence OP). And ive played as low as 2NL, w/ then a standard ABC nit fish and crushed the games. And honestly any style can beat micros especially 10NL and below as long as your postflop play is decent but playin TAG is typically a lot easyer and more profitable for most.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok good argument but jerry wasnt sayin "under these conditions play loose/passive" he said thats basically this is the style to always go w/ which i 100% disagree w/. And some of the examples you give like the shortstack table...switch tables, you shouldnt be playin w/ a table full of shorties (but maybe this is just preference). I also think the preference thing comes into play sometimes too when it comes to limping. Personally I HATE limping. It can sometimes be more +EV but more often than not it isnt.

I figured the table dynamics you'd give for your argument are pretty much exactly what you did give, but to change your style to loose/passive the table conditions have to be at an extreme which IMO dont occur often enough to really worry about it. And basically giving this advice to a strugglin 2NL player is awful b/c switchin your style like this becomes a little more complicated and a bit above his skill level IMO (no offence OP). And ive played as low as 2NL, w/ then a standard ABC nit fish and crushed the games. And honestly any style can beat micros especially 10NL and below as long as your postflop play is decent but playin TAG is typically a lot easyer and more profitable for most.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've never seen a 2nl table that wasn't loose/passive and 90% of the 10nl tables seem to be loose/passive as well

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you left out the most important reason to raise PF, to gain information about other hands you are up against.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm at a table where there are 3 people each seeing more then 60% of the flops (and yes, you can find these tables nearly every night on Full Tilt $25NL 6max), when I raise, I have NO information about what the 3 guys who call me are playing.

[ QUOTE ]
YOu mention suited Aces. Lets say you play Ad 7d and the flop comes A 10 8 rainbow without a diamond. If you limp anyone could call with A 8 and up and you are dominated and with no info a beginner will spew with TPWK at the micros. May work for you but is not good advice to give someone who is already struggling.


[/ QUOTE ]

But I'm not calling with a suited ace to play a big pot with Top Pair weak kicker. Depending on the board and who is involved in the hand, I can drop top pair weak kicker. I may or may not call down with top pair depending on who badly I think the other player is and whether or not they give away their hand strength based on bet sizing.

Haven't you been at tables where 4 people will see the flop and someone will bet 2bb into a 8bb pot on the flop and everyone will call? Then, when you hit the nutflush on th turn, these same people with sets/2 pair/lesser flushes will get their full stack in on the turn?

I'm not recommending people who can't fold top pair crap kicker play Axs UTG. I'm recommending it to people who have the patience and discipline to see many pots cheaply and only get a lot in post flop when they have a monster.

"Most of the people I see that complain their Aces and Kings always get cracked limp with them and with pairs you are begging to get drawn out on without narrowing down the number of players in the pot."

I agree. I said you should still raise your monsters... you can still raise for value. I'm merely suggesting that, if players post flop play is bad ("Can't fold bottom pair" or "I have a gutshot... I'll put in half my stack on the turn") and there's little to no raising preflop, then you should see more flops cheaply with hands that can hit monsters (especially if they're disguised)

I said in the post - raise your really strong hands. See many flops with speculative hands cheaply.

[ QUOTE ]
I hope to see a 35/5 at my tables tonight. Good luck all.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're setting your standards too low. At $25 Full Tilt, you should be looking for 65/3 and 75/20.

[BevillTheDevil]

jerry, a while back didnt you have a thread where you were a losing player over 200k hands at like 50NL/25NL?? and played as high as 100NL??? so what are you talkn about not being comfortable playin higher than 10NL. And everyone tried to give you good advice, even jony offered to coach you for a very reasonable price and you wouldnt take it?? correct me if im wrong plz.

and yea 10NL is def loose/passive so i guess i just ran good when i built my bankroll and moved up quick playin TAG??...

BUT OK OK OK your advice is correct i give up (loose/passive works in loose/passive games) and everyone knows games get more aggro as you move up so then you must realize that YOUR STUCK AT 10NL...i hate gettin in gay dick waving arguements but some ppl wanta move up (and my guess is OP wants to) and the style you advocate is EXTREMELY exploitable as you move up and bad advice in general.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
jerry, a while back didnt you have a thread where you were a losing player over 200k hands at like 50NL/25NL?? and played as high as 100NL??? so what are you talkn about not being comfortable playin higher than 10NL. And everyone tried to give you good advice, even jony offered to coach you for a very reasonable price and you wouldnt take it?? correct me if im wrong plz.

and yea 10NL is def loose/passive so i guess i just ran good when i built my bankroll and moved up quick playin TAG??...

BUT OK OK OK your advice is correct i give up (loose/passive works in loose/passive games) and everyone knows games get more aggro as you move up so then you must realize that YOUR STUCK AT 10NL...i hate gettin in gay dick waving arguements but some ppl wanta move up (and my guess is OP wants to) and the style you advocate is EXTREMELY exploitable as you move up and bad advice in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win. and there were a couple hands of 50nl and 200nl on there thats how i know i'm not comfortable playing that high...because i tried it.

[yapee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also thinks so. I have a friend who has recently played 2nl and I watched him do it alot. I basically think that outfolding people pf is the key to the game (and of course raising with your good hands/ when in good position). That, and getting enough money to move up as quickly as possible ;-]

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win. and there were a couple hands of 50nl and 200nl on there thats how i know i'm not comfortable playing that high...because i tried it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say... I agreed that Jerry's advice could work in certain conditions (which may or may not regularly exist at the $10 tables.) That being said, playing nitty at microlimits is not a losing strategy.

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.

I suspect if you played nitty, you had other leaks.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[yapee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[/ QUOTE ]


There's actually a motorway in hell this works. And an 8-lane one or so.

[kurto]

I've seen players buying in short and playing 8/3/5. Who still get called when they raise and still get paid off...

I have sat at tables and ONLY bet the river with monster hands... sitting with a 300bb stack.... I've bet quads 4 streets and have people calling down with a pocket pair of 2s.

The players are horrible. Sit at a table with a bunch of people with really high VPIPs and then sit and setmine... you'll make money.

Again... I suspect if you've been given advice before and failed to listen to it, then you're not plugging your own leaks.

I ONLY agreed with your playing style under the right conditions. I still tend towards 'nitty' and it never ceases to amaze me what people will pay me off with.

You're simply wrong saying that it doesn't work.

[maciczka]

your vpip is too high at that stakes and pfr is too small. I didn't read anything more. but You prolly are limping too much pf, and Your range is too wide.

[Xanthro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]
theres no way in hell that works

[/ QUOTE ]

At NL10 it will work. You'll see people who literally call pre-flop 75% of the time, and if they limp they'll call any pre-flop raise 90% of the time.

I've seen players with stats of 5/1/1 get called nearly everytime they bet. They are very small winners after the few hundred hands in my DB.

The vast majority of player at NL10 don't pay attention to betting patterns.

[Nairb]

Any style can work given certain conditions but we are talking about a default style that is played with regularity. I had a 71/12 (and wtsd% was 65 wtst won was less than 30) at a table last night. I only had about 400 hands logged but the player was up 4x his buy in at 25nl. I was happy to find him.I eventually broke him twice with hands I raised that he called my raise. Did his call give me info about his hand, no , but a lagtard like that has a hard time getting away from a pot that he has called a PF raise in. In the short run any style can win, and if he had of quit after 400 hands he would have been up 4 buyins and felt good about his game.Instead his style cost him his 4x buy in upswing and another buyin when he called me down with TPWK against my top 2 pair.

I bet no one can produce a PT sheet of a 33/5 with over 5000 hands that is profitable. It just does not add up.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[/ QUOTE ]


Id say this would work a hell of a lot better than playing 40/3

[Nairb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[/ QUOTE ]


Id say this would work a hell of a lot better than playing 40/3

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way you will lose over the long run but the 40/3 will lose a heLl of a lot quicker.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[/ QUOTE ]


Id say this would work a hell of a lot better than playing 40/3

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way you will lose over the long run but the 40/3 will lose a heLl of a lot quicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

pf numbers have nothing to do with how we do in the long run. all pf does is set us up to win and if we fold then we can't win

[Nairb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[/ QUOTE ]


Id say this would work a hell of a lot better than playing 40/3

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way you will lose over the long run but the 40/3 will lose a heLl of a lot quicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

pf numbers have nothing to do with how we do in the long run. all pf does is set us up to win and if we fold then we can't win

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH?

[RedSoxFan]

Drop VP$IP down to about 20 and less for SB- under the position tab you'll see how much money you lose in the blinds by completing.

Increase PFR and cbet most flops if heads up or have a good feel.

I rarely (5%) open limp if folded to me. If several limp and I have a drawing hand, I'll limp along.

Over 18K hands at NL2, I'm running 20.5/12.6/3.24 w 17.3BB/100hands. I was around 8BB/100 until I tightened up and got my aggressive. Just moved to NL5 and same bad players- just bigger stacks.

But really, everyone has a different sytle and not all are bad. It's your postflop play that matters. You should examine your SD% and W$SD.

[jocke4]

just play ABC poker.
c-bet against opponents it works on.

Lots of call stations calling you down with nothing sometimes.
They just think you're bluffing all the time which is good if you have a hand :-)
But against these players just play your hands straight forward.
They will pay you off, but remember just because they suck doesn't mean they cant win some pots.

The only problem I have on these lower levels like nl5 and nl10 is "fps syndrome", yeah i know I'm not the best /images/graemlins/smile.gif
But sometimes against these weak opponents I loose patience and try to out play them.

[mookboi]

This thread should be stickied.
Jerry, and I'm not tryin' to be an [censored], why do you post on a forum where pretty much everyone (I'd say 95%+ of posters with over 50 posts) disagree or would disagree with your playing style?

Oh, and playing nothing but pocket pairs &amp; AKs works just fine even at 50NL. Soldatti and PiscoGay come to mind. Their range is a tiny bit wider than that.

[Trogdor!]

wow jerry is an idiot ldo

@OP, your overthinking 2nl too much. tl;dr but there shouldnt be that amount of analysis for a 2nl hand ever. 2nl is "ZOMG A high arrrin" just play very tight preflop (open more tables if you have to to play less hands) and raise 10x prelop instead of 4x (note: this works at stars 2nl FR with $5 max buyin, im not sure if it works at your games). The reason for this is it magnifies our opponents mistakes at a limit where they will treat your 20c raise the same as 8c (or more accurately, treat it more like a 4x raise at a higher limit. ie the whole table wont call your pfr but you will still get calls from much weaker hands) and it will also isolate the field greatly increasing your chances of winning the hand and teaches you good c-betting before you move up.

cliff notes: secret to beating 2nl (or stars FR with $5 buyin anyway)

play tight
raise 10x instead of 4x preflop
c-bet hu or 3 handed if missed and drop the hammer if hit (tp is usually good gogogog)
jerry does not know what his talking about, its very easy to play profitable at 2nl/10nl but playing as jerry suggests has less +EV then playing tight and raising the hands you play preflop

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win. and there were a couple hands of 50nl and 200nl on there thats how i know i'm not comfortable playing that high...because i tried it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe I've missed this epic thread.

Just because you can't win playing TAG does NOT mean it's a bad strategy. If you played 40/25, you could be aggressive and build big pots when you want them.. but you're playing 40/3.. basically becoming the donk.

Whyyy?

You probably just suck too bad postflop and spew too much money in bigger pots against the people that won't fold. Just because you can't make it work does not mean you should advocate a 40/3 style. I'd like to see your stats after you switched your style.. I guarantee you you're just running hot.

[Trogdor!]

thac

please dont tap the glass, ty

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
thac

please dont tap the glass, ty

[/ QUOTE ]

np, just making sure OP didn't get the wrong idea.

[Trogdor!]

oh man i just had a terrifying thought

Jerry could be a level

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
oh man i just had a terrifying thought

Jerry could be a level

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we get a title on him.. uNL's FGators .. plz plz plz.

[mjws00]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet no one can produce a PT sheet of a 33/5 with over 5000 hands that is profitable. It just does not add up.

[/ QUOTE ]
The stacks at 2NL are DEEP it isn't uncommon to have 300bb+ going in with TPGK. The implieds are wicked. If you are good at hand reading you can play very loose and do well. You guys seem to forget you can get paid down here on every street. You don't NEED to be super aggressive preflop to build a big pot. You just need to value bet, then value bet, then value bet some more. Didn't someone call this 'Fisherman' style. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Problem is the same plays will get you DESTROYED when you move up. But you can learn a lot about hand-reading. I played a little $2NL. Nice way of relaxing. Here's your sheet Nairb. Even looser. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/4f72204cbb.jpg

[You're No Daisy]

[ QUOTE ]
Drop VP$IP down to about 20 and less for SB- under the position tab you'll see how much money you lose in the blinds by completing.

Increase PFR and cbet most flops if heads up or have a good feel.

I rarely (5%) open limp if folded to me. If several limp and I have a drawing hand, I'll limp along.

Over 18K hands at NL2, I'm running 20.5/12.6/3.24 w 17.3BB/100hands. I was around 8BB/100 until I tightened up and got my aggressive. Just moved to NL5 and same bad players- just bigger stacks.

But really, everyone has a different sytle and not all are bad. It's your postflop play that matters. You should examine your SD% and W$SD.

[/ QUOTE ]
I read Tien's post called "Some 6max Fundamentals" and got some good advice from KEW. So I tried it tonight and was 20/18/11 over 269 hands. I was only up 1 BB tonight because AA go beat by QJo (villain limped then called my pot sized raise preflop)...Q on flop, Q on river /images/graemlins/mad.gif. Then KK lost to quads. Everyone limped I made it 8xBB preflop and got one caller...he flopped a boat and rivered quads[2222]. I probably could have gotten away from the hand on the turn, but oh well. I feel very comfortable playing this style. It keeps me out of marginal situations. For the most part, I had very easy decisions to make on every street tonight.

AC

[Spanky1974]

Gawd,
I read until Jerrys post. Never listen to anything that guy says. You can multitable these games playing tightly and beat them for 25ptbb/100. I seriously would recommend tightening up your game, and then adding some hands when you feel comfortable beating the game that you are playing. Quit limping in with crappy hands. raise hands that you want to play and value bet the crap out of them. As for the hand posted, you has two pairs on the flop. Shove for VALUE!

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread should be stickied.
Jerry, and I'm not tryin' to be an [censored], why do you post on a forum where pretty much everyone (I'd say 95%+ of posters with over 50 posts) disagree or would disagree with your playing style?

Oh, and playing nothing but pocket pairs &amp; AKs works just fine even at 50NL. Soldatti and PiscoGay come to mind. Their range is a tiny bit wider than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disaggree with what other people think about post flop. i just think playing tight pf is putting yourself at a disadvantage as a lot of people have said in this thread

[Trogdor!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This thread should be stickied.
Jerry, and I'm not tryin' to be an [censored], why do you post on a forum where pretty much everyone (I'd say 95%+ of posters with over 50 posts) disagree or would disagree with your playing style?

Oh, and playing nothing but pocket pairs &amp; AKs works just fine even at 50NL. Soldatti and PiscoGay come to mind. Their range is a tiny bit wider than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disaggree with what other people think about post flop. i just think playing tight pf is putting yourself at a disadvantage as a lot of people have said in this thread

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

[CruS]

so many laughs at a single thread!

[Phildo]

[ QUOTE ]
if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ever heard of occam's razor?

[rjacobs003]

Wow at this thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've not read every signle post but I guess you don't have to to get the gist of it all. Jerry you need to establish some credibility here. What kind of yield is this style of yours generating? i.e. hands, win-rate,etc

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ever heard of occam's razor?

[/ QUOTE ]

dude i have pt and i play over 80k hands each month. so now explain to me why i'm not seeing hardly anyone beating the game playing tag, but i'm seeing lots of people beating the game not playing tag?

[NL Newbie]

Go to your players list in PT, List by "AMMOUNT WON".

Then take a screenshot and show us.

No screenshot = You convincing yourself your right.
Screenshot = Poker is rigged obv

[jerryf1914]

ok here is a screen shot. all these hands were 6 max i have no idea why my pt doesn't save them as 6max though. just look at that and you'll see that most of the people who are winning are doing it without raising pf.

http://i23.tinypic.com/2564f91.jpg

[thac]

You've gotta be joking.

[Trogdor!]

[ QUOTE ]
You've gotta be joking.

[/ QUOTE ]

[yapee]

This shook the way I view poker... Seriously, I'm glad that I'm out of those stakes, where strange play pays off... ;-]

[mjws00]

I've got another 100K hands at these levels that show the same thing. I don't think the winrate numbers are viable, but the player sample size is large enough to spot the obvious trends. At the end of the day the winners raising 8-12% of their hands are raising the same amount a solid 18/12 TAG is... they just don't hammer speculative hands until post-flop streets when it matters. The other thing to consider is almost most pots are raised and we still get 3-4 callers. Re-raising middle and spec hands is tough especially against call stations and chasers.

One way to think of it is letting the largest number of fish stay in the hand and compound their errors until later streets. It certainly isn't the easiest way to play as you are often in marginal spots. I don't doubt for a second the stronger players here could play over 50% VPIP from later positions and crush this game. I'm no 'baller' and I can do it.

So where are all the graphs showing that Jerry is wrong? How bout a couple 200K hand charts with 20/12 stats and a winrate above 30BB/100. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Personally I think optimal LAG ends up around 30/20 and that takes some serious skill when higher. The edge is so much smaller on later streets against stronger players. But it is extremely profitable to open your game WAY UP down at the nanos if you can play post-flop.

No screenshot = You convincing yourself your right.
Screenshot = Poker is rigged obv

[Nogatsira]

[ QUOTE ]
1700 hands downswing? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even tho it might sound gay: I GIGGLED!

[BevillTheDevil]

lolol jerry leveling?? that screenshot proves nothin!!! lololol so funny you cant even realize this...im done.

[NL Newbie]

[ QUOTE ]
ok here is a screen shot. all these hands were 6 max i have no idea why my pt doesn't save them as 6max though. just look at that and you'll see that most of the people who are winning are doing it without raising pf.

http://i23.tinypic.com/2564f91.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Errr... this screenshot is biased by yourself LOL.

i said LIST BY AMMOUNT and display the sidebar too infact.

Hiding the sidebar clearly shows your full of BS.

Dude, quit poker.

[Nairb]

Jerry if its working for you then work it. I just find at nl25 and nl 50 the numbers are different.

Is it at 10nl there are so many LPP players that people may not try to raise with anything but premium hands because FE does not really exist at this level?

I am really surprised by that PT screenshot but I guess at 10nl you have so many people playing without a solid strategy that maybe it can be marginally +ev to limp more than at hiigher levels.

I still contend it is bad advice to give someone that is struggling or a beginner because you need to be really good at post flop play in order to make your way profitable and at this level I bet not many are skilled enough at post flop play to make this style profitable.

[hennnerz]

haha jerry you play 28/3! wtf dont you listen to any1 on here?!

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]


Errr... this screenshot is biased by yourself LOL.

i said LIST BY AMMOUNT and display the sidebar too infact.

Hiding the sidebar clearly shows your full of BS.

Dude, quit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

why does covering up the names change anything???????

[mookboi]

Dude, 7.75 PTBB/100 at 10NL is pretty lol.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, 7.75 PTBB/100 at 10NL is pretty lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

bs....i'd love to see someone do better over that many hands...

[mookboi]

Basically what you are saying is: Um, look at me, I play 27/3 and I win money, so wtf.

Basically what the other posters are saying is: Yes, you win, but if you just raised an extra 15% of your hands, you would win more.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]

Basically what the other posters are saying is: Yes, you win, but if you just raised an extra 15% of your hands, you would win more.

[/ QUOTE ]

and what i'm saying is thats bs for 10nl. limping = winning

[mookboi]

Ok, how about a propbet? I play 100K 10NL, 12 tabling, playing at least 20 VPIP and at least 16PFR, and if I run lower than 7.75PTBB/100, I'll ship you $1K. If it's the other way around, you ship me $1K.

I loves me some propbets.

[wslee00]

this is getting interesting...

[Nairb]

What is amazing is he has logged over 20000 hands and hasnt learned this. Some are destined to be 10nl 4 life.

[kurto]

to be fair, he's logged over 200K hands and has been winning at a reasonable rate.

Could he have won more? Perhaps. But his style has been working for him and probably are more appropriate for THOSE tables then people give credit for.

A lot of the reason we raise is to (1) build a pot (2) isolate/narrow the field (3) disguise our hands (4) buy the button (5) steal blinds, etc.

When the table is littered with calling stations, reasons (2), (3), (4) &amp; (5) all disappear.

Also- when players are more likely to make HUGE mistakes postflop for large amounts of money, the more correct it is to see more flops cheap.

I agree that this isn't the best advice for a new player. But to discount that a loose passive style can't be a winning strategy is wrong.

[Nairb]

LPP can be a winning style, obviously by his numbers it is for him. However giving that advice to a player that is weak at post flop play is a losing proposition and goes against what 95% of the posts have said, many giving very solid advice.

I also contend he would be a complete donator at any level higher than 25, maybe 50nl. If his goal is to be marginally profitable at 10nl then his goal has been achieved.

[hennnerz]

He doesn't have $1k to ship when he loses.

The fact you post so much and still play 28/3 makes my head asplode. How the hell do you know limping=money when you never play any different?!

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, how about a propbet? I play 100K 10NL, 12 tabling, playing at least 20 VPIP and at least 16PFR, and if I run lower than 7.75PTBB/100, I'll ship you $1K. If it's the other way around, you ship me $1K.

I loves me some propbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

no thanks on the propbet but i'd be very interested to see your results.

[ QUOTE ]
What is amazing is he has logged over 20000 hands and hasnt learned this. Some are destined to be 10nl 4 life.


[/ QUOTE ]

what?

[ QUOTE ]
to be fair, he's logged over 200K hands and has been winning at a reasonable rate.

Could he have won more? Perhaps. But his style has been working for him and probably are more appropriate for THOSE tables then people give credit for.

A lot of the reason we raise is to (1) build a pot (2) isolate/narrow the field (3) disguise our hands (4) buy the button (5) steal blinds, etc.

When the table is littered with calling stations, reasons (2), (3), (4) &amp; (5) all disappear.

Also- when players are more likely to make HUGE mistakes postflop for large amounts of money, the more correct it is to see more flops cheap.

I agree that this isn't the best advice for a new player. But to discount that a loose passive style can't be a winning strategy is wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

well said /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't have $1k to ship when he loses.

The fact you post so much and still play 28/3 makes my head asplode. How the hell do you know limping=money when you never play any different?!

[/ QUOTE ]

as i said earlier in this thread i use to play the other way and it never worked

[hennnerz]

It didn't play because you spewed post flop.

[Prison Mike]

[ QUOTE ]
until I tightened up and got my aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.friedmanarchives.com/China/Page1/images/4%20Thumbs%20Up.jpg

[Nairb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
until I tightened up and got my aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.friedmanarchives.com/China/Page1/images/4%20Thumbs%20Up.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
It didn't play because you spewed post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude kurto just gave you the laundry list of reasons why raising pf at 10nl doesn't work. why don't you believe him either?

[Gigglegirl]

I think Jerry is right (to a degree) and mjws00 makes some good points too. And of course I can see the value of what other people are saying too.
However its not so clear cut either way imo and therefore I'm somewhere in the middle.
Well I am a TAGfish 21/12 or something. /images/graemlins/blush.gif
You should primarily raise for value in the micros.
Raising for deception, image and balance are secondary considerations and sometimes even fall into being FPS.
Yes, it will be neccesary against good thinking players but these are in short supply at micros and in any case these are not the players you are making money from.
You are making your money from the passive calling station recreational players who have never heard of PT, Pahud, think nothing of stacking off OOP w TPGK in limped pots. They think nothing of your image, who is aggressive, who is not. They think about the value of their hand. Period.

In micros, due to calling stations, general passivity, lack of FE, it is more likely that the best hand wins the pot than in higher limits.
Therefore speculative hands are sometimes best played as cheaply as possible until they hit.
Having said all that, I can't agree with Jerry thinking a pfr of 3% is ok. I mean do you limp QQ or what?
You must be able to raise 10% of the time just for pure value. Get yourself to 28/8 (at least) Jerry and I'm sure you'll see an improvement.

[BalugaWhale]

lol loose passive poker is bad poker, you miss out on so much theoretical value by not playing tight and raising hands that are clearly ahead of your opponents ranges. who cares if they all call and you miss a lot, you also hit a lot and own them if you play decently at all postflop.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
dude kurto just gave you the laundry list of reasons why raise pf at 10nl doesn't work. why don't you believe him either?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm not saying it doesn't work. But you would have to adjust to players.

If players are calling too much, then raise larger amounts to compound their preflop mistakes.

Also, you may be appropriately raising preflop but not adjusting postflop.

If you raise and 4 people go to the flop with you, you have to adjust the value of your hand postflop.

I am saying that LPP can work. I am NOT saying that Tight aggressive play does not work.

Please note that I left it open to the possibility that your win raise is lower then it should be. I played $10 tables many eons ago and remember making 15bb/100. And I played like a nit.

You haven't demonstrated that TAG doesn't work because you haven't played it. (its not reflected in the stats you've posted) Nor have you demonstrated your post flop skills. If you correctly raise preflop but make a lot of mistakes postflop, you're going to lose.

Do I think one can win playing loose/passive preflop? Certainly. Does it maximize your potential? By no means...

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dude kurto just gave you the laundry list of reasons why raise pf at 10nl doesn't work. why don't you believe him either?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm not saying it doesn't work.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know you're not saying it doesn't work but you gave the reasons why it doesn't work

[RedSoxFan]

[ QUOTE ]
to be fair, he's logged over 200K hands and has been winning at a reasonable rate.

Could he have won more? Perhaps. But his style has been working for him and probably are more appropriate for THOSE tables then people give credit for.

A lot of the reason we raise is to (1) build a pot (2) isolate/narrow the field (3) disguise our hands (4) buy the button (5) steal blinds, etc.

When the table is littered with calling stations, reasons (2), (3), (4) &amp; (5) all disappear.

Also- when players are more likely to make HUGE mistakes postflop for large amounts of money, the more correct it is to see more flops cheap.

I agree that this isn't the best advice for a new player. But to discount that a loose passive style can't be a winning strategy is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree and disagree- it is true that 2-5 disappear at these micro-limits because a pfr is not respected. But I also see a lot of donks raising 1BB and reraising the min- grow some balls. My 4-6BB raises narrow the field to 1-2 dudes and my cbets (72%) of the time usually are good. If not, I fire on the turn and take it down.

Jerry is a Loose Passive donk who only plays post flop with good hands- I'd extract a lot of money from him preflop by making him pay to see and run when his donkishass hits it hard.

[RedSoxFan]

Really it comes down to post flop play

Limping into a flop like Jerry just leads to too many hard decisions at every street with marginal hands. You don't get value for these hands because you don't know where you stand in relationship to other people- and you lose a lot of money here- from calling too much and from not getting value when you are ahead.

Limping like Jerry is really only profitable when you flop a monster and and can string someone along for their stack- but really how often does this happen. I played 600 hands last night (big deal for some of you but I was busy watching the RedSox spank the Angels) and won 5 big pots. These 5 big pots were 2/3s of my winnings for the night. The rest came from PFR and taking down a small pot with a cbet.

So I guess the point is that you can be successful like Jerry playing 28/3 and waiting for monster flops and be a 7BB/100hand success story

or

you can be aggressive preflop and be a 15-20BB/100 winner like me.

Join my table anytime Jerry (pm me for screen name)- I like passive players like you!

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
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to be fair, he's logged over 200K hands and has been winning at a reasonable rate.

Could he have won more? Perhaps. But his style has been working for him and probably are more appropriate for THOSE tables then people give credit for.

A lot of the reason we raise is to (1) build a pot (2) isolate/narrow the field (3) disguise our hands (4) buy the button (5) steal blinds, etc.

When the table is littered with calling stations, reasons (2), (3), (4) &amp; (5) all disappear.

Also- when players are more likely to make HUGE mistakes postflop for large amounts of money, the more correct it is to see more flops cheap.

I agree that this isn't the best advice for a new player. But to discount that a loose passive style can't be a winning strategy is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree and disagree- it is true that 2-5 disappear at these micro-limits because a pfr is not respected. But I also see a lot of donks raising 1BB and reraising the min- grow some balls. My 4-6BB raises narrow the field to 1-2 dudes and my cbets (72%) of the time usually are good. If not, I fire on the turn and take it down.

Jerry is a Loose Passive donk who only plays post flop with good hands- I'd extract a lot of money from him preflop by making him pay to see and run when his donkishass hits it hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you even play 10nl bro?

[RedSoxFan]

No, not really, I just finished 15K hands at NL2 and moved up to NL5 (4k hands). I've played about 800 hands at NL10 and it's all the same passive bad players- just bigger stacks.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Jerry is a Loose Passive donk who only plays post flop with good hands- I'd extract a lot of money from him preflop by making him pay to see and run when his donkishass hits it hard.


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I agree that a good tag should seriously put the hurt on these players. I suspect that most people don't adjust well to judging hand strengths when they raise and 5 people still go to the flop.

I also think that raising the amount of your PFR probably helps.

I believe I said earlier that I doubted Jerry was correctly adjusting to table conditions... either tightening up, C-betting less and valuebetting more, raising for larger amounts pf, etc.

[wslee00]

Being loose passive pre-flop definitely has its merits, but a pfr% of 3 is just ridiculous. You should definitely be raising AT+/TT+ from all positions, and you need to raise BIG. 4xbb raises don't mean anything at 2NL, so what I started to do was raise about 10xbb.

I would definitely just flat call a lot more with hands like connectors (both suited/unsuited), Ax/Kx suited, etc.

I'll check my pt database tonight, but I think my stats for 2NL-5NL was like 35/10, which would be very fishy stats at 50NL, but probably optimal at 2-5NL.

[yapee]

I'd also like to add, that playing the 27/3 or whatever will teach you bad habits and be bad for your subsequent poker career.

[hennnerz]

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my stats for 2NL-5NL was like 35/10, which would be very fishy stats at 50NL, but probably optimal at 2-5NL

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incorrect

[Perk76]

http://aycu22.webshots.com/image/30461/2000936278826968495_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000936278826968495)

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
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my stats for 2NL-5NL was like 35/10, which would be very fishy stats at 50NL, but probably optimal at 2-5NL

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incorrect

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get it, are you saying that it's not optimal at 2-5NL but optimal at other limits? why did you highlight that part? I actually looked it up last night, my stats at 2-5NL were about 30/13 making about 19PTBB/100 over ~10K hands.

[AZplaya]

I'm not gonna read this whole thing but I will say there is absolutly no reason at any level of NL poker you shouldn't be raising the top 10% of your hands. jerry if you tried to convince us that 26/10 was ideal for these games you might have an argument, but playing 27/3 at any level is highly exploitable and just lol in genera.