Freerolling baby!

[Snozynoze]

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $13.20
Hero (BB): $10.85
UTG: $17.85
CO: $6.50
BTN: $7.85

Preflop: Hero is dealt K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.10, CO folds, BTN calls $0.10, SB folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.35) J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($0.35) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $10.75</font>

<font color="blue"> When that turn card hit, this move seemed like the greatest idea since sliced bread. I'm getting a call from any King which i get to freeroll, possible weaker draws as well as weaker hands i wouldn't mind getting it all in with.

While a value bet might get called, does anyone hate a shove here?

I feel that even if i get 2 pot sized bets in, i'm still not going to get as much as the calls + freerolls i'll get in the long run.</font>

[sholler]

C/R ai, if nobody bets you weren't getting any calls.

[tigershark]

If you get called and a spade doesn't hit, I think Full Tilt rakes ~10% of the resulting pot at these limits. So let's say you get called by K-x. ~20% of the time, you hit your flush, and make a bit more than $8. The rest of the time, you chop ~19.35, and the shove loses you about $1.

So it's a +EV move assuming your opponent has what you hope he has, and will call, though it's much more narrow than you might have been expecting because you aren't really free-rolling.

I still hate it, though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think a better move would be a bet of about 2/3 a pot. You'll get called by a range of hands that have 3 outs to chop, can charge those hands again on the river, and if he is holding a K, you'll find out when he re-raises you. Either now, or on the river.

Shove then. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[proudpapa]

Is this real?

[Snozynoze]

[ QUOTE ]
If you get called and a spade doesn't hit, I think Full Tilt rakes ~10% of the resulting pot at these limits. So let's say you get called by K-x. ~20% of the time, you hit your flush, and make a bit more than $8. The rest of the time, you chop ~19.35, and the shove loses you about $1.

So it's a +EV move assuming your opponent has what you hope he has, and will call, though it's much more narrow than you might have been expecting because you aren't really free-rolling.

I still hate it, though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think a better move would be a bet of about 2/3 a pot. You'll get called by a range of hands that have 3 outs to chop, can charge those hands again on the river, and if he is holding a K, you'll find out when he re-raises you. Either now, or on the river.

Shove then. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if i bet pot on the turn and bet pot on the river, i make about $1 profit, IF i'm not splitting.

[Snozynoze]

Not to mention, even if i over bet the pot for like, .60, if the board pairs, i'll be OOP and having the play the river blind. On the turn, i'm happy to get those calls from two pair or even a slowplayed set.

Plus, i have seen many times myself someone make a call with a hand like 77 here or a hand like Q9 of spades which would be drawing dead.

I think even with the bloated rake, getting calls from a K are even money. And any other calls are +EV.

Not to mention, every time they fold, that's .25 to add to the profit side.

[Micro Donk]

you assume hes only calling down with a king...people who cant fold 2 pair will hang on as well

[Uruk17]

I'm currently playing these limits atm, and i see alot of stupid players, so this might work right now with these micro limts. But vs smarter players i don't think this play will be profitable.

[Snozynoze]

[ QUOTE ]
you assume hes only calling down with a king...people who cant fold 2 pair will hang on as well

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if you are telling me, or the person who replied, but if you are telling me, a call from 2 pair would be awwwwwesome /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[barabe]

drop your hand and run

[barabe]

ok look, u got 35 cents in the pot, and ur pushing all in. u only get called by king, which is not likely that someone holds it, at this point in the betting round, with no tells, and a very wide range. u should bet a resonable amount, and have someone raise u if they do have a king, or call u with a possibly weak hand, like two pair or trips, (which has a slight chacne of outdrwaing u). if they raise, shove. if they call, shove on the river. but u cant shove randomly into an opponents who havent given off any action, to represent anything, from them you try to represent a steal, and get a call, or a bluff/value raise, to which uc an go all-in and possibly get called by weaker opponents, or soemone who does happen to have that king, in which case u guys are destined to stack off anyways, and yes u are destined to have the upper hand due to ur 9 outs.

[Snozynoze]

[ QUOTE ]
ok look, u got 35 cents in the pot, and ur pushing all in. u only get called by king, which is not likely that someone holds it, at this point in the betting round, with no tells, and a very wide range. u should bet a resonable amount, and have someone raise u if they do have a king, or call u with a possibly weak hand, like two pair or trips, (which has a slight chacne of outdrwaing u). if they raise, shove. if they call, shove on the river. but u cant shove randomly into an opponents who havent given off any action, to represent anything, from them you try to represent a steal, and get a call, or a bluff/value raise, to which uc an go all-in and possibly get called by weaker opponents, or soemone who does happen to have that king, in which case u guys are destined to stack off anyways, and yes u are destined to have the upper hand due to ur 9 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you PLAYED 10NL?

i try not to post results, but i got one call, AT, and i stacked him.

TAA DAAAAA

[terp]

just bet, two pair will call and a king will raise

[Nogatsira]

at NL10 i love this move!

[Ratamahatta]

You are not freerolling, DUCY?

[Tiki]

[ QUOTE ]
just bet, two pair will call and a king will raise

[/ QUOTE ]

A FD also calls.

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
You are not freerolling, DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely we're ahead or freerolling? What am I missing?

[Tiki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are not freerolling, DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely we're ahead or freerolling? What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose a /images/graemlins/spade.gif which gives villain quads or a FH.

[Snozynoze]

[ QUOTE ]
[edit] Freeroll hand
In playing a particular hand of poker, a freeroll is a situation that arises (usually when only two players remain) before the last card has been dealt, in which one player is guaranteed to at least split the pot with his opponent no matter what the final cards are, but where there is some chance he can win the whole pot if certain final cards are dealt. This most commonly occurs in a high-low split game where one player knows that he has a guaranteed low hand made, his opponent cannot make a better low no matter what the last card is, but the player who is low might possibly catch a lucky card that gives him a straight or flush, winning high as well.

Here's an example from Texas hold'em: Angie holds K&amp;#9827; 10&amp;#9827;, and Burt holds K&amp;#9829; 10&amp;#9829;. After round three, the board is A&amp;#9827; Q&amp;#9824; J&amp;#9829; 4&amp;#9827;. Both players have an ace-high straight, the current nut hand, and so they will most likely split the pot. But if the final card happens to be a club, Burt's straight will lose to Angie's flush. There is no other possible final card that will give Burt more than a split; only Angie can improve, so she is freerolling Burt.

If a player knows he has a freeroll, he can raise the pot with impunity, and often a less-skilled opponent with a good hand who does not realize that he is on the wrong end of the freeroll will continue to put in raises with no possible hope of gain.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeroll

You people keep saying we're not freerolling, when againts any K, that is exactly what this is.

[jasonfish11]

I like this play at these stakes. I did this in a live tourny once and it worked out perfect. BB 42ss, 2 limpers flop comes A35 2 spades. Guy bets the pot (I knew he cant wont fold A9 here). I shove for ~$5000 into a $150 pot. He calls and says "I have the nuts" I said "congrats you have no chance to win." River spade flush thanks for your money.

[wslee00]

bleh - when you need two cards to the straight this doesn't work quite as well. you were just very lucky he also had 24

[Snozynoze]

The funny thing is, everyone saying bet, you're missing out on one of the best reasons for the shove. the pot is TINY. even with two streets of value, the pot is still tiny.

How much would you bet on the turn and river? What if the river is a Queen. What about Q spades? How do you play OOP here?

Now that you see how small these bets are, knowing there is no hand better then mine, and there are certain calls i'll still get at this level, this seems like an obvious move.

I mean, lets say you were on this turn and you had a hand like K5 (which many of these donks do)

That turn comes out, you fold the nuts?

There is no hand here i'm not profitable againts, and at this level, there are many that still call with hands like AT. Plus, most of these donks slowplay to the death. If one called and showed me TT i wouldn't have thought it odd at this level.

As i said though, no one had a King, but i did get called by AT. Thought it was interesting, and posted the hand.

[Bowlboy]

i dont like this play for the simple fact that if villain also has a King then all the money is going in anyway. You're still frerolling and do not need to shove. You only need to make a normal sized bet, the nut straight should raise you here on the river at which point you 3bet and it all goes in. So if the money is inevitably going in where villain also has the nuts, then worry about the times he doesnt and try to get some value here. Villain could hold a weaker flush draw, and hit on the river or potentially even try to bluff you on the river. You're missing out on a bunch of value over the long run by making this play.

[Snozynoze]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like this play for the simple fact that if villain also has a King then all the money is going in anyway. You're still frerolling and do not need to shove. You only need to make a normal sized bet, the nut straight should raise you here on the river at which point you 3bet and it all goes in. So if the money is inevitably going in where villain also has the nuts, then worry about the times he doesnt and try to get some value here. Villain could hold a weaker flush draw, and hit on the river or potentially even try to bluff you on the river. You're missing out on a bunch of value over the long run by making this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how much is a normal sized bet? And how do you play if river is a queen and you bet (how much here) and he shoves?

(just one example)

[guitarizt]

Wow, snozy i can't belive all the hate ur getting. I love your line, im shoving this too.

[RedSoxFan]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like this play for the simple fact that if villain also has a King then all the money is going in anyway. You're still frerolling and do not need to shove. You only need to make a normal sized bet, the nut straight should raise you here on the river at which point you 3bet and it all goes in. So if the money is inevitably going in where villain also has the nuts, then worry about the times he doesnt and try to get some value here. Villain could hold a weaker flush draw, and hit on the river or potentially even try to bluff you on the river. You're missing out on a bunch of value over the long run by making this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree- missing huge amount of value over long run. Sure you got a caller this time but majority of time you'll win the tiny pot. I don't necessarily look at the $$$ in the pot because at NL10- everything sucks, but I look at the big bets won. And value betting here (to string along the draws and top pairs) will get you more over the long run than shoving everytime you are garunteed a split.

[Bowlboy]

A normal sized bet would be anywhere from 2/3 to full pot both on the turn and the river. Whether or not to call a shove on the river is pretty read dependant should the board pair. By shoving as you did, with the rake you're either taking down a tiny pot where villain has no King and chopping a lot of the other times where you dont hit a spade, and losing to the rake.

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are not freerolling, DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely we're ahead or freerolling? What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose a /images/graemlins/spade.gif which gives villain quads or a FH.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he gets quads or a FH then we were ahead on the flop.

[guitarizt]

I don't think the money's always going in if the flush hits. First, someone likely has two pair or trips on the turn and they're still live. A lot of bad cards can come on the river. They might not fold to his shove on the turn anyways. Second of all, I don't think many people are going to get allin if a spade hits the river.

[Snozynoze]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are not freerolling, DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely we're ahead or freerolling? What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose a /images/graemlins/spade.gif which gives villain quads or a FH.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what holdings will be hitting quads?

Freerolling comes from the situation witht he King.

I invite all other calls here with a shove, but i am unable to price them out with any bet.