25NL JJ 4betted

[chrismystero]

readless, 3rd hand in...this could even be a fold to the 4bet preflop. comments preflop and on flop please.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($41.30)
Hero ($25)
SB ($46.55)
BB ($14.60)
UTG ($27.25)
MP ($14.65)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3.25</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $9.75</font>, Hero calls $6.50.

Flop: ($19.85) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets $15.25</font>, Hero ...

[Milky]

I assume that puts you all-in... I'd definitely call here, as this was a good flop for you (since no overs came). If you're calling pf there should be no way you'd fold this flop.

The question is should you have called pf though? I honestly don't know so I hope someone else responds.

[popeye18]

Fold pf. Unless hes crazy or something what do u think your beating after he 4bets.

[Mr. Ratface]

Fold preflop.
As played I fold turn but I suspect others might disagree.
The only flop I'm really happy with after is calling is one with a jack.

[avfletch]

I'd fold this preflop. You've defined your hand to be premium and he's 4bet you OOP anyway (but not shoved) so I think you're looking at a range that crushes you.

[Schiester]

I'm folding pf with 2:1 odds you're given here. I've finally learned that b/3b pf (without reads) at 25nl almost cetainly means QQ-AA... only very occasionally, AK.

Short of AK, the only hand you beat pf (TT) has made a set on the flop. As played fold imo.

[ev_slave]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're calling pf there should be no way you'd fold this flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the way I feel about it too. When it's 4 bet PF you have to see this decision coming about 88% of the time (12% you'll hit and be committed regardless of what other cards are on the flop) and either plan PF to jam/fold/or set-mine the second you see that 4 bet.

As played, I think it's a fold.

[Student Caine]

The problem with folding here is that we are getting like 2.3:1 to call here. The $15 bet from villain is a 3/4 pot bet at this point. If we are going to fold here then we should have folded preflop.

[Hail Eris]

Easy fold PF against an unknown, but if you do decide to call PF, folding this flop is impossible.

[Mr. Ratface]

I don't see how you beat anything here. Unless you've seen him get crazy I think the only hands he 3-bets with are 10's to Aces and then AK. The only hand you beat is AK and you really think he's doing that with AK on this flop.
His bet also put you exactly all in. I think it's a fold.

[Leviathan101]

if he will 4bet AK preflop, you can't fold this flop. I know you are readless but think about an average player at 25nl on stars. Can they 4bet AK here? if not fold, if so you must call.

either way, you should've folded preflop.

[popeye18]

[ QUOTE ]
if he will 4bet AK preflop, you can't fold this flop.
either way, you should've folded preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

? Just because he is capable of 4betting pf with ak doesnt mean he should call pf with jj. Say his range is qq+ and ak. If you do the math it will still be a fold.

[Leviathan101]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he will 4bet AK preflop, you can't fold this flop.
either way, you should've folded preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

? Just because he is capable of 4betting pf with ak doesnt mean he should call pf with jj. Say his range is qq+ and ak. If you do the math it will still be a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt say call preflop. I said call the flop.

Maybe I was being unclear. As played, if the villian's range includes AK, he has to call.

[popeye18]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he will 4bet AK preflop, you can't fold this flop.
either way, you should've folded preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

? Just because he is capable of 4betting pf with ak doesnt mean he should call pf with jj. Say his range is qq+ and ak. If you do the math it will still be a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt say call preflop. I said call the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say pf was a misclick and his range is still qq+ and ak. Its still a fold on the flop as yoru only getting 2:1.

[chrismystero]

Agree with all arguments above, thanks. I agree my preflop call was awful, thats why I questioned it in original post. *sigh*, I play bad.

[Leviathan101]

there are 18 combinations of AA-QQ and 16 combinations of AK. that means on this flop you are only beat 53% of the time. You don't get outdrawn by AK often enough to fold here.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he will 4bet AK preflop, you can't fold this flop.
either way, you should've folded preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

? Just because he is capable of 4betting pf with ak doesnt mean he should call pf with jj. Say his range is qq+ and ak. If you do the math it will still be a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt say call preflop. I said call the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say pf was a misclick and his range is still qq+ and ak. Its still a fold on the flop as yoru only getting 2:1.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well according to pokerstove it is a call if that is indeed his range. But I agree that the decision is pf, not on this flop. Folding here would be criminal if you called pf. If pf was a misclick this LOL fold.

[popeye18]

[ QUOTE ]
there are 18 combinations of AA-QQ and 16 combinations of AK. that means on this flop you are only beat 53% of the time. You don't get outdrawn by AK often enough to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good chance im retarded here but ak will win about 25% of the time no? So when villain goes all in on the flop he is a huge favorite 52% of the time and will draw out 25% of the time.

[Leviathan101]

thats still only a total of 65% (47%*24%= 11.28%) and you will draw out on AA-QQ 8% of the time as well. I'm pretty sure you have like 37 or 38% equity, which isn't much but is enough to call given the pot odds.

So with 2:1 you are still priced in.

[Mr. Ratface]

Do you take into account the 1 combination of JJ that he ties and the (3?) combinations of 10s?
Even though there are 16 combinations of AK do you really think many people 4-bet AK in this spot and the put him all in on that flop?