Calling standard raises with medium-low pocket pairs

[n4rf]

10NL
Say UTG raises to .35 and you're in mid position with 77. Do you guys raise if this opponent is loose/call if he is tight? Is that the usual line with mid/low PP's?

Also say it's just you and him on the flop and it comes with 2 overs and you know he's going to bet out. What do you do here? What about if its only one over?

Any clarification would be great.

[reemas]

at micro limits i think its good to always raise pp's. if you flop a set, and you raised pf, you're likely to cash in. and being in positions always helps.

[bored]

Call preflop and try to hit a set.

If you don't hit a set; fold.

[Gelford]

Honestly ... I usually fold small medium pp's facing a raise.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly ... I usually fold small medium pp's facing a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on villain I agree. If he's loose he's likely not gonna hit enough of the flop to pay you off. I don't call too often anymore unless they're pretty bad players.

[nutstoyou]

I usually just call, but I will almost always call a raise if it is less than 5% of my stack unless I have a player who is extremely aggressive behind me and yet to act.

I don't like to raise because I might get reraised. If no one else calls, then I am in position against the raiser after the flop, so I might be able to win the hand, even if I don't flop a set, depending on what the flop looks like by betting if he checks or by raising what I think is only a ce-bet and getting him to fold.

All of this is obviously very dependent on how I have seen the villain play.

[Milky]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly ... I usually fold small medium pp's facing a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate? I'll call w/small to mid PPs all the time against a raise. Your call may also induce other players to play along which is good for when you flop a set.

[Gelford]

There is not much to elaborate, I don't like calling for implied odds alone, so if I'm to call, then it is a combo of implied odds and float value, but usually I don't bother as I'm lazy.

[Pokey]

Why has no one yet pointed out that there's not enough information to answer OP's question?

While SSNL discussed extensively the idea that the 5/10 rule is overly aggressive, I think for $10NL it works just fine. For those of you who don't know, the 5/10 rule comes from Phil Gordon: with a pocket pair, you can always safely call a bet preflop for 5% or less of the effective stack sizes. You can always safely fold a bet preflop for 10% or more of the effective stack sizes. Between 5% and 10% is a judgement call.

Note: effective stack sizes. I'm not saying the number of BBs in the bet. I'm not even saying the size of the bet relative to the stack sizes. I'm saying the size of the bet relative to the amount of money that you can realistically get into the pot if you happen to hit your set on the flop.

So: if UTG raises to 0.35 and you're in mid position with 77, you need to be able to win $3.50 if you hit your set. Maybe that comes from UTG himself. Maybe that comes from the loose fish overcaller. Maybe that comes from some combination. Wherever it comes from, you need to make a profit of $3.50 on the hand for calling to be worth your while. If UTG's stack is $7 and he's not overly tight, that should be relatively easy. If UTG has a stack of $3 and everybody else has folded, you're not getting enough value to hunt for a set.

A preflop three-bet with a pocket pair is usually a bad idea -- villains at $10NL don't fold often enough for you to gain much in the way of folding equity out of your raise, so you're basically playing for set value in either case. Against a given opponent and with given stack sizes it's better to pay $0.35 to hunt for a set than it is to pay $1.20 to hunt for a set.

As you move up in stakes, your folding equity will rise and three-betting light preflop will OCCASIONALLY be a good idea, depending on the opponent. As a general rule, however, go ahead and set mine -- it'll prove quite profitable against a wide range of opponents through $200NL.

[traz]

wait what? Assuming 100bb stacks, some of you actually fold low-mid pp's to a 4bb raise?

[AZplaya]

traz,
I was thinking the same thing...I've pretty much never even considered folding a pp to a 4bb raise in position with effective stack of 100BB's...my decision is always between calling and raising.

[Waingro]

I like to call. It is usually not rocket science to figure out if you are still good on the flop ui. But against tight and aggressive players it seems kind of pointless to call with 22. Not that there exists such beings at uNL.

[BrunoThePug]

Against a 30/15+/2+ type villain I will usually three-bet especially if the villain seems positionally aware.

Against a 20/10/1 type villain I will usually call if villain isn't short stacking.

Against a 10/5/0 type villain I will usually fold as their PFR range includes a lot of hands that beat my 77.

In other words, I'm more likely to three bet looser/aggro opponents knowing that their button raising range is pretty wide.

This is all probably pretty obvious (and hopefully not totally spewish) but "depends on the villain" hasn't really come up yet.

[Chicago Twister]

[ QUOTE ]
the 5/10 rule comes from Phil Gordon

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't want my nit-pick to be the extent of my contribution, but this didn't come from PG. It came from Ruben & Ciaffone in thier book (http://www.amazon.com/Pot-Limit-No-Limit-Poker-Stewart-Reuben/dp/0966100719/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-0323600-6233673?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191275718&sr=8-2)

[Leviathan101]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a 30/15+/2+ type villain I will usually three-bet especially if the villain seems positionally aware.

Against a 20/10/1 type villain I will usually call if villain isn't short stacking.

Against a 10/5/0 type villain I will usually fold as their PFR range includes a lot of hands that beat my 77.

In other words, I'm more likely to three bet looser/aggro opponents knowing that their button raising range is pretty wide.

This is all probably pretty obvious (and hopefully not totally spewish) but "depends on the villain" hasn't really come up yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wierd to me. The tighter the players raising range the more likely i'm going to call with my pocketpair (but not raise) The tighter they are the more likely the will pay you off when you hit because their hands are inherently stronger. The looser they are, you have to make more value from your pairs by outplaying them, this means sometimes repopping, and sometimes calling and winning unimproved. But with 100bb, I would never fold 22 to a 4bb raise vs any villian.

[BrunoThePug]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a 30/15+/2+ type villain I will usually three-bet especially if the villain seems positionally aware.

Against a 20/10/1 type villain I will usually call if villain isn't short stacking.

Against a 10/5/0 type villain I will usually fold as their PFR range includes a lot of hands that beat my 77.

In other words, I'm more likely to three bet looser/aggro opponents knowing that their button raising range is pretty wide.

This is all probably pretty obvious (and hopefully not totally spewish) but "depends on the villain" hasn't really come up yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wierd to me. The tighter the players raising range the more likely i'm going to call with my pocketpair (but not raise) The tighter they are the more likely the will pay you off when you hit because their hands are inherently stronger. The looser they are, you have to make more value from your pairs by outplaying them, this means sometimes repopping, and sometimes calling and winning unimproved. But with 100bb, I would never fold 22 to a 4bb raise vs any villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like if the villain is super tight maybe less than 10VPIP and their PFR is in the 0-2 range the WORST possible hand that you're up against is something like AKo. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit with their PF range. I'm talking about the villains who are not raising PF with AQ and not getting all in when a Q comes on the flop.

I agree with you on people who have a tigher PFR range, but are willing to commit with TPTK, however I'm less inclined to call a raise PF against somebody who doesn't seem capable of getting AI with TPTK or an overpair. That sounds normal right? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Leviathan101]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a 30/15+/2+ type villain I will usually three-bet especially if the villain seems positionally aware.

Against a 20/10/1 type villain I will usually call if villain isn't short stacking.

Against a 10/5/0 type villain I will usually fold as their PFR range includes a lot of hands that beat my 77.

In other words, I'm more likely to three bet looser/aggro opponents knowing that their button raising range is pretty wide.

This is all probably pretty obvious (and hopefully not totally spewish) but "depends on the villain" hasn't really come up yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wierd to me. The tighter the players raising range the more likely i'm going to call with my pocketpair (but not raise) The tighter they are the more likely the will pay you off when you hit because their hands are inherently stronger. The looser they are, you have to make more value from your pairs by outplaying them, this means sometimes repopping, and sometimes calling and winning unimproved. But with 100bb, I would never fold 22 to a 4bb raise vs any villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like if the villain is super tight maybe less than 10VPIP and their PFR is in the 0-2 range the WORST possible hand that you're up against is something like AKo. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit with their PF range. I'm talking about the villains who are not raising PF with AQ and not getting all in when a Q comes on the flop.

I agree with you on people who have a tigher PFR range, but are willing to commit with TPTK, however I'm less inclined to call a raise PF against somebody who doesn't seem capable of getting AI with TPTK or an overpair. That sounds normal right? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

ah well, IMO if they aren't willing to felt with TPTK after raising, you can probably push them off tons of hands anyways. If that's how they are, I'm more inclined to start calling with suited connectors and cramming somewhere with draws, cause I have ridiculous FE vs them. But yea, vs those villians small pocketpairs lose some value.