NL10: Was I insane to shove here?

[proudpapa]

MP seems ultra lag, running about 40/15 after about 20 hands. No real reads on the SB, who hasn't been playing long.


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $11.30
BB: $9.85
UTG: $9.30
MP: $9.10
CO: $10.35
Hero (BTN): $11.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/Kh.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/Qh.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $0.30</font>, CO folds, Hero calls $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB calls $0.20
Uncalled bet of $0.00 returned to BB

Flop: ($1.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/5h.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/Ks.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/Kd.gif (4 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/5h.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/Ks.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/Kd.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/8c.gif (4 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $0.40</font>, BB folds, MP calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

River: ($2.40) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/5h.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/Ks.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/Kd.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/8c.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/9d.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $0.60</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $3.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises all-in to $10.70</font>, SB folds, MP calls all-in for $5.40
Uncalled bet of $2.30 returned to Hero
Uncalled bet of $0.00 returned to MP

Pot Size: $19.80 ($1.95 Rake)

[senorquinn]

In a hand like this you need to build the pot before you shove if you decide thats what you want to do. Otherwise you get a situation like you have here where you are doing a massive overbet on the river and the only hands that beat you are going to call. I would bet the flop and raised the turn.

[mookboi]

If he's really ultralag, and we got position, I would probably 3bet this preflop. Although I guess calling is cool too. I bet this flop. It's time to start building the pot. Lot of times on button, people will bet out on this kinda board (paired, dry) to pick up pot. So I'd bet $.60 and hope that it looks like that's what I'm doing.

I like raising turn as well. We wanna get money in here. We already trapped MP between me and the SB. Time to make it 3x on turn and force both of them to call.

River is fine, although now I'm a bit worried about homeboy raising, so I might call. What hands is he raising with here that we still beat? We are basically hoping for a slowplayed Kx, or something like JJ, cuz if he got 99, 88, 55, K9, whatever, we are behind.

[kroeliewoelie]

This hand is played badly. First of all your hand is bad against his raising range, that includes a lot of hands like AQ,AK,QQ,KK,AA. Against all of which you are a huge dog. So I'd fold preflop. If you cant fold face cards then raise them, initiative is very useful when the flop is full of low cards. You can take the pot down with a cbet.

As I am writing this I stack a shortstack with AK who's calling my preflop raise and going all in on a K high flop with KQ. A textbook example of why KQ plays bad against raises.

But ok you didn't fold, so you HAVE to bet the flop. You do not have the immortal nuts and you do not want to give freecards to weaker kings. Get the money in while ahead. That is on the flop.

At 10 NL I want this hand all in and doing that without overbetting the pot can only be done by bettin each street.

Please stop slowplaying! (And complaining afterwards if you did slowplay and someone made a better hand than you because of the free card you gave)

[pikeamus]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all your hand is bad against his raising range, that includes a lot of hands like AQ,AK,QQ,KK,AA. Against all of which you are a huge dog. So I'd fold preflop. If you cant fold face cards then raise them, initiative is very useful when the flop is full of low cards. You can take the pot down with a cbet.


[/ QUOTE ]

A call isn't always horrible here against a LAG, in position, provided you play well enough post flop. However, this guy has shown that he doesn't play that well post flop so you're right, he probably should be raising or folding.

Like everyone else said you should be betting that flop. You'll get value from a ton of hands that you beat (weaker kings and mid pocket pairs also call on that flop) so start building the pot.

As played on the turn you should also be raising. By the river you're hand is way under represented so you shouldn't be worried about being behind, however I can't see a hand worse than yours calling a shove except KJ, KT. So yeah, I think this hand has been too bungled by the river to shove, slowplay less next time.

[ZingZhang]

Look at all the ultra long responses /images/graemlins/laugh.gif lol, good times

20 hands isn't enough to call someone an 'ultralag,' esp not with 40/15/?? stats /images/graemlins/wink.gif I second the 3 bet preflop shout from mook, you want to isolate the presumed fish and play this pot both heads up and in position... It makes everything that follows a lot easier. Basically, a 3 bet pf, a flop bet of around half the pot (looking like you just want to pick it up with a c-bet, no-one bets trips here, right? /images/graemlins/wink.gif ) and you're in a position to get most or all the money in on the turn, which is what I'd be looking for here.

It's hard to say what is going to a) pay you off and b) raise that river, I haven't got pokerstove here to run any ranges, maybe someone could do that, but if you'd created a larger pot by the turn the all the money would be in and I'd imagine that'd be a + equity spot vs raising and calling ranges.

[Kasane]

Don't slowplay that flop in your position. Bet it. Raise turn too, but that's not the sequence you would have gotten if you had just bet the flop.

[JadeRedstone]

Second betting on all streets.

As played, I just call the river. You might get SB in on the ride and I have no idea what he has that will allow him to reraise SB weak bet.

[UnlikelyNinja]

If a guy is playing crazy, and he raises from middle position, 3-bet KQs on the button.

Bet the flop.

As played, just call river. I strongly suspect you don't have the best hand, though. You're up against 55, 88, or 99, no?

[avfletch]

I definitely don't hate calling preflop. KQs will play well heads up or multiway and you have position. If you're going to call off a pot sized bet on every street when you flop Kxy then sure it sucks and you deserve to be shown AK.

If you play it heads up with MP then you'll have an SPR of around 13 which is excellent. He'll have a hard time making large bets without a real hand and then you'll have options for extracting value or taking it down depending on the flop.

When you get more people along for the ride you're stuck playing it much more straight forward but the lack of 3bet means you are unlikely to be dominated.

When you see such a lovely flop against 3 other people don't get tricky trappy just start betting and see who wants to come for the ride. Individually they've probably only got a couple of outs to stack you but together that's a lot and you're pretty much always going broke when they hit so charge them/force them out early.

[Snozynoze]

The call preflop is fine against a true crazy player (40/15 doesn't mean he's raising any two though, his raising range is much tighter)

Againts a 40/15, i'm looking to be the one raising preflop, as that means he's calling with almost half the deck.

But we are here on the flop, and this is a good flop....so build the pot.

If you get coolered, that's the way it goes. Playing KQ, you might get shown AK. This many people, you might get shown K5 too. It happens.

Build the pot. It's multiway, get in a bet. You will start building a pot when ahead as well as learning information for the streets to come.

From your river shove, i can see you planned all along to get it in, so don't play scared on the flop and turn, and don't play tricky. The kings will call, as well as players that think, "Well if he had a king, he'd check here."