A7s Situations

[QTip]

Any thoughts on these thoughts?

You're in a tough game. There are 3 limpers, sb completes, and you check your option with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Scenario 1: The flop comes down A /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

The sb bets, you fold.

Scenario 2: The flop comes down A /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

The sb bets, you raise, the sb calls

2b: Turn is 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

sb checks, you bet

Your plan if sb calls is to take free showdown UI.

Your plan if sb raises is to fold if he plays straight-forward and to call down if he's tricky and will bluff raise enough to warrant keeping him honest.

[W. Deranged]

My simple question is this:

In a 6 sb pot, having a back-door flush draw is worth something like 1/3 of a small bet. Is this decision really so borderline that that 1/3 of a small bet flips the situation from a fold to a raise?

This situation is obviously tough, but my feeling is that against most opponents this will either be a fold or a raise, regardless of the backdoor draw.

[QTip]

WD:

Would it make a difference if there were 2 limpers?

1 limper?

[jason_t]

In this pot the backdoor flush draw doesn't change anything.

[QTip]

The reason I'm putting this here is 3 fold WD.

This is from hepfap pages 71 and 72. I found the flop decision to be interesting as well, as they seem to think that the bdfd is the deciding factor here. They give no scenario with position or # of players or reads, so I tried to make something up that would be as neutral as possible and focus only on hand value.

Also, this is the only spot that I'm currently aware of where hepfap, sshe or top talk about a free showdown line.

Also, I think these situations are interesting anyway because depending on the size of the pot from the situations PF, we need to consider hidden outs.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
In this pot the backdoor flush draw doesn't change anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

What size pot would it? It doesn't seem like the authors are suggesting a 25sb pot or anything of that nature.

[C-Dog]

I like the raise line, he is the SB so he could easily have a worse Ace than you, or some other hand, he only sort of voluntarily entered the pot.

Tough Games with 3 Limpers seem like good games.

C-Dog

[QTip]

This is in the last part of the free card section for those of you with a different edition.

[Shillx]

Q

With fewer limpers, you should just call on the flop. It becomes closer with 3 because the next guy is getting 7:1 to call the flop. The NPA wrote a nice article on this exact topic in the internet magazine this month . If he wants to call getting 5:1 with T9 that is fine by me, but he is getting too good of a price at 7:1. So I do think it is raise or fold with calling being somewhat worse then raising.

The turn is interesting as well because he is leading into 4 others on the flop. Does he really have 9x or 66 here? The fact that the game is tough makes me think that he might since Ax hands are less likely to be limped by tougher players (unless they are intending to LRR). In a loose game, I could never see him betting with less then an ace on this drawless board. I mention this simply because I feel like it is close between checking behind and betting on the turn. We obviously don't want to give a free one to a 9x hand that will fold, but I don't know if he has that kind of hand enough to warrent a bet. I dunno, it is an interesting dynamic to say the least. It will be interesting to see what others have to say.

Brad

Edit - I'm assuming that the flop bettor is a tough player.

[car ramrod]

I can't imagine folding hand 1, but this is an interesting post. I wouldl ike to hear some other thoughts.

You think the bdfd changes things?

I like hand 2

[BigBrother]

I was just re-reading this section a few nights ago and your example wasn't ringing a bell, so I just went back and took another look.

I think the difference between your example and the book is relative position to the other players. You put Hero in the BB, OOP relative to the 3 limpers, but the free card play applies to having position on your villains so that you can check-behind on a future street.

The conundrum is how the heck you would end up in-position against few players on the flop with A-rag. Being in the BB gets you there preflop, but doesn't really give you a free-card situation unless you had only 1 or 2 limpers and your flop raise blows them out of the pot. Then you are left with just yourself and SB for the later streets and you can apply the free-card to lose a half-bet less against AT or whatever.

[BigBrother]

I think it really depends on your lineup. If the villains behind are tight enough they will fold without an Ace or a monster, and your SB is the type that will jam middle pair all day, then calling may be best, at least for the flop, in either case.

Presumably your example is set up to imply that SB wouldn't bet into this tough crowd without likely having a decent Ace, but then wouldn't he be more likely to c/r?

I see players lead out with middle pair all the time so I'm probably raising here a lot on the flop. The bdfd really comes into play on the turn if a crowd stayed along.

[QTip]

Again folks, I didn't say it made a difference, but MM and DS did. I'm very disappointed in the fact that they give absolutely no information in the book on pot size, # of players, action, position etc.

[QTip]

From the text "You don't have enough to draw to legitimite hand to make it worth calling the check raise on the turn"

This would seem to imply the pot is smallish...at least not large.

[DeathDonkey]

I hope people read this and think about it - Brad is money here. Btw did you drunk dial me on New Year's Brad??

-DeathDonkey

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope people read this and think about it - Brad is money here. Btw did you drunk dial me on New Year's Brad??

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what shillx wrote here. However, the way the passage is worded in hepfap, calling doesn't seem to be on the menu.

[BigBrother]

The book seems to imply that it's more likely the aggressor has a bigger Ace.

Our experience in the 21st Century online uber-aggro games tell us that is usually not the case, so it's harder to apply the example, no?