50NL, Totally lost with AA

[aaiiooo]

Only been at the table for a few hands. Villain seems to be open limping a bit.


Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $54.75
BB: $50.05
UTG: $90.70
Hero (CO): $49.75
BTN: $53.65

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.50</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls $2.00

Flop: ($5.75) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $4.00</font>, UTG calls $4.00

Turn: ($13.75) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $9.00</font>, UTG calls $9.00

River: ($31.75) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $28.50</font>, Hero ???

Just dont get what he's calling me with on the flop, 88, overpair, underpair. No clue whats going on here. Should I really be folding this against your average 50nl player?

[thing85]

Yes, this is an easy fold IMO.

[n4rf]

Could be a flush draw on the flop and he's trying to take the pot down on the river?

[thing85]

[ QUOTE ]
Could be a flush draw on the flop and he's trying to take the pot down on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

At 50NL, you rarely see a bluff this large on the river (when no prior aggression has been shown). Donks like to bluff their missed draws with 1/3-2/3 the pot. Betting almost the full pot here seems like he wants to get value for his big hand. If we had a better read on villain, this would be an easier decision.

[Sean Fraley]

It's a small pot on the turn and there is too much money behind to really be trying to get it all-in. Just check behind on the turn and call up to a pot size bet. If you don't have the SPR to be commit, pot control is your friend.

[mojed]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a small pot on the turn and there is too much money behind to really be trying to get it all-in. Just check behind on the turn and call up to a pot size bet. If you don't have the SPR to be commit, pot control is your friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do we call a pot size bet if a third spade hits?

[Lego05]

C'mon...betting the turn is fine. Mid-pair or flush draw is a huge portion of his range and turn is value time.

Sure you could check behind and get some in on river but you're gonna miss out on value that way against a lot of opponents IMO.

River's tricky cause the missed flush doesn't usually make that big of a bluff....and I doubt the midpair bets that big. Good chance of a 3 or some monster I think.


And particularly to Sean....I haven't read PNL...but just cause you bet the turn doesn't mean you have to committ to getting all your chips in.

And even so it's really all about hand ranges and equities vs. those ranges and being able to extract vs. those ranges. I'm kinda skeptical about SPR and especially if you just let it take over decisions like this and other decisions on whether or not to bet or decisions whether or not to get all-in even. Since I haven't read the book though I can't really make a definitive comment about the concept as you mean it.



I guess you like the book so yea but I'll ask anyway: Do you think that book would be worth it for me to get and read?

[AAmucked]

I can see J10ss or 56ss turning up here a lot, possibly trying to look like a busted draw by betting pot. I immediately thought call here but a lot of a decent UTG limping range that calls two streets got there or already was there by the river, and a lot of that range won't bet out pot with showdown value (89ss, 109ss)

This board makes it incredibly obvious he either has a FD or a big hand when he calls two streets, if he's halfway decent he's betting on that when he donks pot into you on the river. It just seems really unlikely he's turning 55/66 into a bluff and villain would have to be pretty retarded to bluff a missed FD on this board

[aaiiooo]

Just to show how incredibly difficult it is to put these guys on a hand, I actually called and he had....

56 of clubs, yeah CLUBS! he called nearly a pot sized bet on the flop with.. umm a pair draw? and a back door straight draw, lol.

I'm finding it very difficult to fold in these situations against non-regulars because of all the really strange stuff thats turning up when I do call (and obv cos I'm a fish). He really has to have 77, 88, or 99, but.. err.. no

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a small pot on the turn and there is too much money behind to really be trying to get it all-in. Just check behind on the turn and call up to a pot size bet. If you don't have the SPR to be commit, pot control is your friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do we call a pot size bet if a third spade hits?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes we do. Generally if you check behind the turn it is for two reasons:

1) Pot control/Induce a bluff. In this case you have pretty much obligated yourself to call the bet since you took an action that quite possibly goaded villain into making it. The third spade hitting quite possibly makes it even more likely that villain will bluff since it gives him a scare card to make it more believable.

2) We are shutting down. In this case we have given up on this hand and already decided to fold to any further action.

Keep in mind that significantly overbetting the pot/shoving/check-raising from villain is a different story here. In that case a fold would probably be the wise choice on the river.

[NL Newbie]

I go broke here, Aces up - We're so strong.
Yeah he'll have 3x here alot, but you'll see 78, 89, missed FD, other wierd [censored] enough to call IMO.

Its tough and you lose a fair bit, but w/e thats why its gambling.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
C'mon...betting the turn is fine. Mid-pair or flush draw is a huge portion of his range and turn is value time.

Sure you could check behind and get some in on river but you're gonna miss out on value that way against a lot of opponents IMO.

River's tricky cause the missed flush doesn't usually make that big of a bluff....and I doubt the midpair bets that big. Good chance of a 3 or some monster I think.


And particularly to Sean....I haven't read PNL...but just cause you bet the turn doesn't mean you have to committ to getting all your chips in.

And even so it's really all about hand ranges and equities vs. those ranges and being able to extract vs. those ranges. I'm kinda skeptical about SPR and especially if you just let it take over decisions like this and other decisions on whether or not to bet or decisions whether or not to get all-in even. Since I haven't read the book though I can't really make a definitive comment about the concept as you mean it.



I guess you like the book so yea but I'll ask anyway: Do you think that book would be worth it for me to get and read?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I would suggest that pretty much anyone playing uNL should get the book. While some of the earlier chapters, in particular the ones that have been covered in the study group so far, are pretty basic the ones that deal with planning your hand around pot commitment and SPR are spectacular and help you play the hand from the moment that you get dealt you hole cards in a fashion that makes the decisions at the table much easier.

A concept that they bring up that directly deals with this hand is that constantly being willing to get 1/3 or more of the effective stacks in the pot and then folding to a decent size bet is pretty much asking opponents to bluff you out of pretty healthy percentage of your profits. Due to this fact it becomes rather important to decide whether or not you have a hand that you are willing to get it all-in with or not before you get there. If you are likely ahead of the range that villain will get it all-in with by showdown with, then you want to get the chips in as fast as villain is willing to call and being bet into or raised is a good thing. If you are likely behind/break-even with villains range, you want to keep the pot small so you aren't faced with an all-in bet and the tough decision that comes with it. That situation is almost exactly what happened in this hand. By betting the turn he built a pot big enough that a pot size bet puts here to a tough decision for almost all of his stack. If Hero had checked behind the turn, a pot size bet would have been unpleasant but easily callable.

EDIT: For another point about hands like these, I recall a post in the SSNL master sticky about how if you find yourself facing a difficult decision in the hand it is most likely due to a mistake you made earlier in the hand that has directed the course of the hand to this point. The main goal of the book is to teach neophyte players such as ourselves how to start thinking about the hand in such a way that we can start looking for and avoid these mistakes from the instant that we get dealt our hole cards.