30NL: QQ, Deep & OOP Play Along

[Snafu'd]

I think this hand is fairly interesting but maybe not. If anything, I think my play in the hand is debatable. Villain in hand was running 46/14/1.5 with 25.5% WTSD and 50% W$SD but only over 100 hands, so take it fwiw. Other than that, I hadn't noticed much to have a solid read. We'll try this as a play along, so other than just saying "raise," maybe discuss how much we should raise and why etc.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $6.90
BB: $20.90
Hero (UTG): $66.50
MP: $45.55
CO: $55.45
BTN: $15.95

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qh.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qs.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $1.05</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $3.00</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $2.85, BB folds,
<font color="blue">Hero? </font>

[z28dreams]

Call. You're an UTG raiser, villain re-raised and only has a 14% PFR number.

Let's see a flop and play poker.

[nutstoyou]

I would reraise to $9. The SB is short stacked and will almost always call but he is so short that he's not that much of a worry. If the CO reraises me all-in then I fold. The CO could have AK, but that is probably the worst hand he has and if it's not AK, then it is usually AA or KK. I hate to call all-in raises with QQ, especially against two players.

[wingchunflush]

[ QUOTE ]
I would reraise to $9. The SB is short stacked and will almost always call but he is so short that he's not that much of a worry. If the CO reraises me all-in then I fold. The CO could have AK, but that is probably the worst hand he has and if it's not AK, then it is usually AA or KK. I hate to call all-in raises with QQ, especially against two players.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you dont want to get re raised and have to call his all in dont re raise, I call here. See a flop and go from there

[AZplaya]

Do you have a 3 bet % on him? I usually reraise to about $10 - $12, get sb AI and put some pressure on CO who I'm assuming is a donk.

[AZplaya]

[ QUOTE ]
if you dont want to get re raised and have to call his all in dont re raise, I call here. See a flop and go from there

[/ QUOTE ]
I really disagree with this...don't let a villian to see the flop this cheap w 200BB stacks behind just cuz you don't want to face a push.

[UFGatorGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you dont want to get re raised and have to call his all in dont re raise, I call here. See a flop and go from there

[/ QUOTE ]
I really disagree with this...don't let a villian to see the flop this cheap w 200BB stacks behind just cuz you don't want to face a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.. why are we so scared to reraise here? It's not like the villain is running 8/5. His preflop stats indicate he's not very positionally aware so his 3betting our UTG raise doesn't mean as much. For everyone who said call, do you really think we're behind here that often? If you do, then how do you play it on a 25T rainbow flop? His AA or KK would still be ahead. If we are check/folding if an A or K hits, why not reraise preflop to get more money in while we are ahead?

[Poker's Busmalis]

Yep, I raise and fold to a push/5b cuz it's almost always AA/KK/AK. Calling is bad for aforementioned reasons.

[Bigka79]

i think we call here and see it along. lets play the flop then see where were at

[Snafu'd]

Good to see there is debate on this street. Hopefully the rest of the hand will be interesting as well.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $6.90
BB: $20.90
Hero (UTG): $66.50
MP: $45.55
CO: $55.45
BTN: $15.95

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qh.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qs.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $1.05</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $3.00</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $2.85, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12.00</font>, CO calls $9.00, SB calls all-in for $3.90

Flop: ($31.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Jc.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/4d.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/2s.gif (3 Players - 1 All-In)
<font color="blue"> Hero? </font>

If bet, how much and what is your plan for a flat call or a raise?
If check, what is your plan and why?
Also, keep in mind the SB is all-in at this point so there is a side pot of about $10 and the main pot is $20ish.

Edit: I did not have 3 bet % on villain.

[AZplaya]

I would lead for $20. If Villian shoves I would call, though I won't be happy about it. I can't fold an overpair against a 46/14 with this much money in the pot.

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
I would lead for $20. If Villian shoves I would call, though I won't be happy about it. I can't fold an overpair against a 46/14 with this much money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is your default hand range vs. a 46/14 that 3 bets and then calls a 4 bet in position?

[wingchunflush]

Post deleted by wingchunflush

[wingchunflush]

I lead for about 20 as well. I think this is AK a lot of times, and we will take the side pot right here.

[wingchunflush]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you dont want to get re raised and have to call his all in dont re raise, I call here. See a flop and go from there

[/ QUOTE ]
I really disagree with this...don't let a villian to see the flop this cheap w 200BB stacks behind just cuz you don't want to face a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.. why are we so scared to reraise here? It's not like the villain is running 8/5. His preflop stats indicate he's not very positionally aware so his 3betting our UTG raise doesn't mean as much. For everyone who said call, do you really think we're behind here that often? If you do, then how do you play it on a 25T rainbow flop? His AA or KK would still be ahead. If we are check/folding if an A or K hits, why not reraise preflop to get more money in while we are ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at this hand again I have changed my stance. My earlier reply was for the guy who didnt want to fold to a raise, if you dont want to take the chance of getting moved off this hand then just call. Thinking about this guys numbers though I would re raise as well . Sometimes I will just call because he will probably call with AJ+ and will see a flop this mixes up our play and saves us a little money if an Ace hits the flop, this isnt my default play though.

[Snafu'd]

So everyone likes a bet here? We'll move along if that is the consensus.

[Snafu'd]

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $6.90
BB: $20.90
Hero (UTG): $66.50
MP: $45.55
CO: $55.45
BTN: $15.95

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qh.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qs.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $1.05</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $3.00</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $2.85, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12.00</font>, CO calls $9.00, SB calls all-in for $3.90

Flop: ($31.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Jc.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/4d.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/2s.gif (3 Players - 1 All-In)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $5.00</font>, <font color="blue"> Hero?</font>

So I didn't bet, now what?

[NL Newbie]

3bet or dont w/e.

Villans often smooth call KK/AA when deep move with caution.

You can chck call, then chk fold turn. Or lead out/fold to raise.

Its a tough choice.

[Snafu'd]

Alright, we'll finish this up. So do we love it, hate it? I thought it was a pretty tough hand altogether and each street is debatable. I'd love to hear some more opinions.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $6.90
BB: $20.90
Hero (UTG): $66.50
MP: $45.55
CO: $55.45
BTN: $15.95

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qh.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qs.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $1.05</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $3.00</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $2.85, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12.00</font>, CO calls $9.00, SB calls all-in for $3.90

Flop: ($31.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Jc.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/4d.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/2s.gif (3 Players - 1 All-In)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $5.00</font>, Hero calls $5.00

Turn: ($41.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Td.gif (3 Players - 1 All-In)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $13.00</font>, Hero folds

[UFGatorGuy]

I really don't like how you played this hand. You showed a ton of weakness by checking the flop and turn, of course villain is going to bet. Once you reraise preflop and villain smooth calls, it looks like AA and KK are less likely. A 42/14 doesn't usually get tricky with big hands like that. It looks like villain has AK and is trying to buy his way out of trouble, albeit badly. I would have led out on the flop for $20 (it's extremely inconsistent to 4bet preflop and check a non-scary flop like that, which would have been good if you had tried to CRAI) and called a shove. Your line looks really weak-tight to me.

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like how you played this hand. You showed a ton of weakness by checking the flop and turn, of course villain is going to bet. Once you reraise preflop and villain smooth calls, it looks like AA and KK are less likely. A 42/14 doesn't usually get tricky with big hands like that. It looks like villain has AK and is trying to buy his way out of trouble, albeit badly. I would have led out on the flop for $20 (it's extremely inconsistent to 4bet preflop and check a non-scary flop like that, which would have been good if you had tried to CRAI) and called a shove. Your line looks really weak-tight to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, although I'm not sure I agree with the flop CRAI given that I checked. What range are you putting this villain on? By the turn, AK is the only hand in his range that I'm ahead of IMO.

[TTStrangler]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, we'll finish this up. So do we love it, hate it? I thought it was a pretty tough hand altogether and each street is debatable. I'd love to hear some more opinions.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $6.90
BB: $20.90
Hero (UTG): $66.50
MP: $45.55
CO: $55.45
BTN: $15.95

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qh.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qs.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $1.05</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $3.00</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $2.85, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12.00</font>, CO calls $9.00, SB calls all-in for $3.90

Flop: ($31.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Jc.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/4d.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/2s.gif (3 Players - 1 All-In)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $5.00</font>, Hero calls $5.00

Turn: ($41.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Td.gif (3 Players - 1 All-In)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $13.00</font>, Hero folds

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused about the way you played this hand. You 4-bet the flop committing quite a bit of money, Villain just flat calls, decreasing the chance of AA,KK, the board never really gets all that scary, yet your post flop line seems so weak tight to me also.

IMO, this is a great board for hero who showed so much confidence in QQ pre flop, not sure why all of a sudden we feel we may be beat here. I think your passiveness post flop really made this hand more difficult to play than it needed to be. As played, I suppose I would just call the flop bet after checking, but not betting (or check raising which just puts more money in here than probably desirable, and tells a very weird story about our hand) really puts you in a bad spot on the turn, having very little information to go off of as to where Villain may be at.

I almost agree with you, I'm a little lost on the turn, as played, as well.

[AZplaya]

wow dude that turn fold is just gross IMO - Maybe he has AA/KK but I think that he has hands like 99 or even just AK more than often enough to get it AI here.

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
wow dude that turn fold is just gross IMO - Maybe he has AA/KK but I think that he has hands like 99 or even just AK more than often enough to get it AI here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I'm not saying I played the hand well. What I did do though was put him on a range and go with it. Maybe I'm really off here, but his range once he calls my 4 bet this deep is fairly narrow, TT+ imo.

[Snafu'd]

At the time, I took into consideration that CO knew the hand was going to get shown down, given the fact that SB is already all in. I discounted AK from his range b/c I didn't think it would fire again on the turn into a side pot. Good or bad thinking here?

[Perk76]

I think with the size of the pot that any villan may be more inclined to over play AK/AQ type hands in hopes of isolating the deadmoney and the shortstack. I have watched alot of hands where I tell myself that this guy has a real hand since it will be shown down and come to find out it was junk.

I cant believe you did not lead either the flop or the turn. As played, you should call the turn bet. Both villans bets have been weak sauce. I really doubt villan would come this weak again on the turn and let you draw if he had a strong hand at this point.

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
I think with the size of the pot that any villan may be more inclined to over play AK/AQ type hands in hopes of isolating the deadmoney and the shortstack. I have watched alot of hands where I tell myself that this guy has a real hand since it will be shown down and come to find out it was junk.

I cant believe you did not lead either the flop or the turn. As played, you should call the turn bet. Both villans bets have been weak sauce. I really doubt villan would come this weak again on the turn and let you draw if he had a strong hand at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah maybe so. I viewed his bets as value bets since he was firing roughly half the pot (sidepot) on both the flop and turn.

[RichieG]

Villain's line is so weak, it looks like whiffed AK / AQs to me. Plenty of donks around who could even be playing AJs this way.

I bet flop for at least $10, up to $15, and then maybe shut down if called, but the way you played it you never showed enough aggression for villain to credit you with AJ, let alone an overpair. I think he's betting air - what did he show down?

[Snafu'd]

<font color="blue"> Since I'm still a little confused on this hand and having a hard time viewing this completely objectively, let me just provide my thought process so we can see where the problems are. </font>

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $6.90
BB: $20.90
Hero (UTG): $66.50
MP: $45.55
CO: $55.45
BTN: $15.95

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qh.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qs.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $1.05</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $3.00</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $2.85, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12.00</font>, CO calls $9.00, SB calls all-in for $3.90

<font color="blue"> The UTG raise is completely standard. Once CO 3 bets and the SB calls with such a short stack, I think this is a fine spot for a 4 bet b/c 1)I have a hand and 2) I'll likely get the SB to call all in w/ a hand I crush and 3) taking back control of the hand. </font>

Flop: ($31.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Jc.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/4d.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/2s.gif (3 Players - 1 All-In)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $5.00</font>, Hero calls $5.00

<font color="blue">Given that the CO decided to smooth call my 4 bet in position, I've given him a default hand range of TT+, AK. Some of you seem to disagree with this range but I'm having a hard time believing that he calls this deep with much else - and we only have 100 hands on him. Given his range that I put him on, I decide to check/call b/c of a few reasons 1) He could bet a hand that I'm ahead of (TT, AK) 2) If I lead for any decent amount, I'm going to have trouble getting off the hand and if all the money goes in, I'm almost always beat, and 3) Pot control. Leading for $20 is an option that most of you like on the flop, but you realize that if villain raises, it is only going to be $23 more to you to call - are you really going to fold? Do you think your hand is good often enough where getting it in for 200bb's is correct?</font>

Turn: ($41.20) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Td.gif (3 Players - 1 All-In)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $13.00</font>, Hero folds

<font color="blue"> Given that I check/called the flop, I decide to check again b/c in my mind he is going to define his hand on this street. He fires again for roughly half the side pot. At this point I heavily discount AK from his range b/c 1) his hand is going to showdown and 2) the 1/2 psb (sidepot) looked like a value bet. A lot of you disagree with this thinking, I'm just having a hard time believing that he plays 99 or AK this way but I could certainly be wrong. Since it looks like the CO is plenty happy getting all the money in, I stick with the range I've put him on and fold.

Any more input on where I went wrong would be greatly appreciated.</font>

[Perk76]

The major thing that I see is that you havent defined your hand anywhere. The lone villan has not defined his hand either at this point. Put yourself in his shoes, do you really bet that small on flop and turn with made hands?

The only hand that I think might play this way is air/JJ. I really dont think villan plays AA/KK this way from the villans perspective.

Just seems like with the betsizing and the way you played the hand you need to call the turn getting 4-1. And make a decision on the river depending on the card etc.

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
The major thing that I see is that you havent defined your hand anywhere. The lone villan has not defined his hand either at this point. Put yourself in his shoes, do you really bet that small on flop and turn with made hands?

The only hand that I think might play this way is air/JJ. I really dont think villan plays AA/KK this way from the villans perspective.

Just seems like with the betsizing and the way you played the hand you need to call the turn getting 4-1. And make a decision on the river depending on the card etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm the only one who thinks the hands are pretty well defined preflop then. I 4 bet UTG and he called a 4 bet in position deep stacked. Maybe this is where I'm a little off, but I've just not seen many 4 bets and 4 bet smooth calls be much else than TT+, AK at these stakes.

[Perk76]

You 4bet sure, but after that you gave up your control, making your hand look like AK/AQ.

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
You 4bet sure, but after that you gave up your control, making your hand look like AK/AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I guess my real question is what hand range are you putting him on given all the preflop info we've got.

[monkover]

I think I´m stacking off here even is such a deep pot. if villain was a semisolid tag i def fold but against a 40/15 or whatever donk you will be good here a solid percentage of the time although it prob is still marginal.

[NL Newbie]

OK,

I'm awake now(Went to bed at around 7am which is close to when i replied to this).

Villans range is:
AA: 6
KK: 6
QQ: 6
[JJ/TT] 6/6
AK: 16


Ahead of on flop: AK + TT - 22
Behind: 18
Maxamise EV = Check/calling to induce a bluff if he does bluff(Most will!).



Ahead of on turn: AK - 16
Behind: 24
Now on this turn card, we've gone behind more combos. However the odds are great if het bets small, and his weak bet adds more weight to AK so a call would be ok here IMO.


Note: we've assumed he reraises TT/JJ, most villans wont - So these can be discounted, which brings the "Ahead behind" combos from 16(AK):24(AA/KK/JJ/TT) to 16(AK):12(AA/KK). Therefore we're actually in good shape with good odds even with the 16:24(1:1.5 ratio).

This makes a call good.

However the downside to the turn check is we may be bet off our hand, won't know his strength due to our weak line and we also don't know [censored] all about the villan.

Now we've also got numerous factors here which can be debated - This is where the the "Maxamise EV but calling flop and turn" debate gets weaker.

Against:
Villan in unknown - He may never bluff, or he may bluff every hand.
Villans range is unknown - He may reraise AQs, or 88 because his gf just dumped him.
Villan can now take a free card with AK(12% of this pot now goes to him!!).


For:
Big pot, villans bluff these.
Bet sizes are weak, $5? Wtf is that, adds more weight to AK.

Theres a few more which i can't think of right now, i may add shortly.

So IMO, check/clal flop and lead turn is the best +EV line vs a relatively UNKNOWN opponent.

PAHUD = Doesn't make anyone 'known'.


- The line you took, i have a hard time folding this turn to such a weak ass bet.

[monkeymaps]

Im assuming the OP was just putting vilan on JJ or TT only? I dont fancy myself a good enough hand reader to fold here even just c/c down in this spot is better than fold IMO

also given villans high VIP can he aver have like 77-99 and AQs here?

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
OK,

I'm awake now(Went to bed at around 7am which is close to when i replied to this).

Villans range is:
AA: 6
KK: 6
QQ: 6
[JJ/TT] 6/6
AK: 16


Ahead of on flop: AK + TT - 22
Behind: 18
Maxamise EV = Check/calling to induce a bluff if he does bluff(Most will!).



Ahead of on turn: AK - 16
Behind: 24
Now on this turn card, we've gone behind more combos. However the odds are great if het bets small, and his weak bet adds more weight to AK so a call would be ok here IMO.


Note: we've assumed he reraises TT/JJ, most villans wont - So these can be discounted, which brings the "Ahead behind" combos from 16(AK):24(AA/KK/JJ/TT) to 16(AK):12(AA/KK). Therefore we're actually in good shape with good odds even with the 16:24(1:1.5 ratio).

This makes a call good.

However the downside to the turn check is we may be bet off our hand, won't know his strength due to our weak line and we also don't know [censored] all about the villan.

Now we've also got numerous factors here which can be debated - This is where the the "Maxamise EV but calling flop and turn" debate gets weaker.

Against:
Villan in unknown - He may never bluff, or he may bluff every hand.
Villans range is unknown - He may reraise AQs, or 88 because his gf just dumped him.
Villan can now take a free card with AK(12% of this pot now goes to him!!).


For:
Big pot, villans bluff these.
Bet sizes are weak, $5? Wtf is that, adds more weight to AK.

Theres a few more which i can't think of right now, i may add shortly.

So IMO, check/clal flop and lead turn is the best +EV line vs a relatively UNKNOWN opponent.

PAHUD = Doesn't make anyone 'known'.


- The line you took, i have a hard time folding this turn to such a weak ass bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good post. I guess where your thoughts differ from mine was where you weight the smallish bets more heavily towards AK whereas I weighted them more heavily towards TT+. They screamed value bets to me but clearly that is debatable. I thought the flop check/call was completely fine and it's good to see that at least someone else somewhat agrees with that. By leading the turn, I'm guessing that we are going to have to call an all in raise and hope he's got AK or QQ huh?

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
Im assuming the OP was just putting vilan on JJ or TT only? I dont fancy myself a good enough hand reader to fold here even just c/c down in this spot is better than fold IMO

also given villans high VIP can he aver have like 77-99 and AQs here?

[/ QUOTE ]
How much weight can we give stats with only 100 hands (serious question btw)? I'm also behind KK and AA fwiw.

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im assuming the OP was just putting vilan on JJ or TT only? I dont fancy myself a good enough hand reader to fold here even just c/c down in this spot is better than fold IMO

also given villans high VIP can he aver have like 77-99 and AQs here?

[/ QUOTE ]
How much weight can we give stats with only 100 hands (serious question btw)? I'm also behind KK and AA fwiw.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah sorry forgot that obv. do you have any reads on the bet sizing by villan does he normally make small bets with monsters? or air? I have a hard time giving him AA and KK given preflop and small bets by villan. think his range is more likely JJ TT and hands you crush

[NL Newbie]

[ QUOTE ]

Good post. I guess where your thoughts differ from mine was where you weight the smallish bets more heavily towards AK whereas I weighted them more heavily towards TT+. They screamed value bets to me but clearly that is debatable. I thought the flop check/call was completely fine and it's good to see that at least someone else somewhat agrees with that. By leading the turn, I'm guessing that we are going to have to call an all in raise and hope he's got AK or QQ huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

bet/fold, i dont think QQ is a concern and AK i doubt ever shoves here.

You'd be behind 99%, im not sure what odds we get. I dont think i even care /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Snafu'd]

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Good post. I guess where your thoughts differ from mine was where you weight the smallish bets more heavily towards AK whereas I weighted them more heavily towards TT+. They screamed value bets to me but clearly that is debatable. I thought the flop check/call was completely fine and it's good to see that at least someone else somewhat agrees with that. By leading the turn, I'm guessing that we are going to have to call an all in raise and hope he's got AK or QQ huh?

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bet/fold, i dont think QQ is a concern and AK i doubt ever shoves here.

You'd be behind 99%, im not sure what odds we get. I dont think i even care /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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If I lead the turn for say around half the pot ($20ish) villain's raise all in won't even double my bet size. So to me, it only makes sense to bet if we are planning to call all in.

[NL Newbie]

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Good post. I guess where your thoughts differ from mine was where you weight the smallish bets more heavily towards AK whereas I weighted them more heavily towards TT+. They screamed value bets to me but clearly that is debatable. I thought the flop check/call was completely fine and it's good to see that at least someone else somewhat agrees with that. By leading the turn, I'm guessing that we are going to have to call an all in raise and hope he's got AK or QQ huh?

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bet/fold, i dont think QQ is a concern and AK i doubt ever shoves here.

You'd be behind 99%, im not sure what odds we get. I dont think i even care /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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If I lead the turn for say around half the pot ($20ish) villain's raise all in won't even double my bet size. So to me, it only makes sense to bet if we are planning to call all in.

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uNL say this alot and i think its a leak. In short, Odds mean nothing when you lose to everything

Even if AK bluffs here, he doesn't bluff enough for you to be able to call.

You can bet less to save chips too.

[Snafu'd]

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Good post. I guess where your thoughts differ from mine was where you weight the smallish bets more heavily towards AK whereas I weighted them more heavily towards TT+. They screamed value bets to me but clearly that is debatable. I thought the flop check/call was completely fine and it's good to see that at least someone else somewhat agrees with that. By leading the turn, I'm guessing that we are going to have to call an all in raise and hope he's got AK or QQ huh?

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bet/fold, i dont think QQ is a concern and AK i doubt ever shoves here.

You'd be behind 99%, im not sure what odds we get. I dont think i even care /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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If I lead the turn for say around half the pot ($20ish) villain's raise all in won't even double my bet size. So to me, it only makes sense to bet if we are planning to call all in.

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uNL say this alot and i think its a leak. In short, Odds mean nothing when you lose to everything

Even if AK bluffs here, he doesn't bluff enough for you to be able to call.

You can bet less to save chips too.

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I get what you are saying but if you include some hands like AdJd, AdQd, AdKd along with TT+ as his range that might felt, you are getting closer to a tough decision. Throw in a couple other frustration pushes that he could show up with occasionally and folding QQ could become marginal. But, as you pointed out, you don't necessarily have to bet 1/2 the pot, so the odds could change.

[Perk76]

So what happened? SB take his pot?

[NL Newbie]

AK obv /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Snafu'd]

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So what happened? SB take his pot?

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SB had the third best hand going in and the second best hand at showdown.

[Afro_Love]

what happened?