Folding QQ preflop - Too conservative?

[n4rf]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($10.30)
BB ($19.25)
UTG ($4.60)
MP ($9.85)
CO ($61.05)
Hero ($11)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $0.35</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $19.35 (All-In)</font>, CO folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $-15.35

Only had 15 hands on the player stat wise and they were average stats. Something like 20/15, but I couldn't look at the stats since it was only 15 hands.

I figured he probably pushed to try to get AK, or any big pocket pair to call and I assumed he had at least KK or AA (Maybe AK himself)

[Bad Beat Maker]

I'd call. At $10 NL with no hands on someone he could be trying to rickroll u

WE'RE NO STRANGERS TO LOOOOVE. YOU KNOW THE RULES AND SO DO I!

[CruS]

I like the fold.
@ 10NL i think this is AA / KK a lot of the time;
it's often: "oh [censored] I got AA how do I play this"
either: "I slow play, muhahhahaha"
or: "AAAA, push and hope he calls"

[scallop]

good fold - Mostly its AK/AA/KK so QQ is -EV. Plus training yourself to fold these big hands pf can only be a good thing if you wanna move up.

[Bad Beat Maker]

Have you guys played $10NL? Against a unknown I'm definately calling here and beating his jacks. So glad I cleared .01/.02 and am at $50nl in 7 weeks now cuz of my secret uber knowledge of how teh fish think.

[n4rf]

The way I see it is the chance he had AK/KK/AA was much larger than him holding a lower pocket pair or maybe even AQ. I wouldn't always assume JJ vs an unknown considering the fact that I was the reraiser to the original raise.

[CruS]

I disagree with BBM, and yes I have played enough on 10NL and I have also been a fish once who also started out thinking like this.

[Bad Beat Maker]

[ ] BBM has been a fish before and has been flying through limits effectively with large samples of hands?

[CruS]

no checkmark? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Bad Beat Maker]

because ive never been a fish, and have been doing what ive been doing. wierd sentence sorry

[CruS]

honestly, I'd say since you need to be right here 1/2 of the time, you need a good read on the opponent before making such a call. Of course if he has been spewing money all over I call here, otherwise I would fold.

[CruS]

another note: 3 bets is pretty rarely seen @ 10NL so him seeing one and still have the balls to push here, I really do put him on AA

[Bad Beat Maker]

dude i saw 3bets all day with random ass hands from assclowns. im sorry im agitated, i admit ur right....

[x] Poster still is 8ptbb/100 hands at $10nl over 324 hands; nuff said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

[CruS]

324 hands? =)

[Bad Beat Maker]

Yea check me doing a stat check in the link. Found it pretty effective.

[TheDoubleA]

BBM, I have just over 100 hands against you at 10nl and you played really loose and bad.

And yes, I would fold QQ here in this spot. I think over the long run you are -EV making this call. Just because you will pick off JJ or the random Ax, doesnt mean that it is a good thing to be doing. Worry about making good decisions, and dont worry about the results.

[Bad Beat Maker]

TheDoubleA you are lying, I dont play lose, ive even been called nitty b4. good job.

Must explain why I'm at $50nl now.

[pbx]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.336% 49.93% 01.40% 36764358 1033849.00 { QdQs }
Hand 1: 48.664% 47.26% 01.40% 34797016 1033849.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }


Its NL10 and him just having air 2-3% of the time makes this a call. But if you tilt easily then I guess you could fold.
At NL25+ Im folding this.

oh and 9.04PTBB/100 over 13K hands when I was playing NL10 and I mostly called with QQ AI PF

[TheDoubleA]

[ QUOTE ]
TheDoubleA you are lying, I dont play lose, ive even been called nitty b4. good job.

Must explain why I'm at $50nl now.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are the bad beat maker played against about a week ago, I dont think so. Im at work so I dont have PT, but I remeber looking you up when you were at my table. If you care, Ill post what I got when I get home tonight. Maybe just in a PM though.

And jesus get you panties out of that bunch.

[Bad Beat Maker]

im jk with u im not even mad. but look at the post above urs. thats exactly what im talkin about

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the fold.
@ 10NL i think this is AA / KK a lot of the time;
it's often: "oh [censored] I got AA how do I play this"
either: "I slow play, muhahhahaha"
or: "AAAA, push and hope he calls"

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be more likely to call that push than a please call me raise, especially from unknown types at that limit.

Mack

[clowntable]

[ QUOTE ]
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.336% 49.93% 01.40% 36764358 1033849.00 { QdQs }
Hand 1: 48.664% 47.26% 01.40% 34797016 1033849.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }


Its NL10 and him just having air 2-3% of the time makes this a call. But if you tilt easily then I guess you could fold.
At NL25+ Im folding this.

oh and 9.04PTBB/100 over 13K hands when I was playing NL10 and I mostly called with QQ AI PF

[/ QUOTE ]
Take the AQ out of the range and we know why we should fold. Personally I think villain doesn't push here with AQ and maybe not even with JJ but if you think he does the call is obviousely right.
To the poster that said "call all day and beat JJ": You play vs a range and not vs a hand. Just because you sometimes happen to run into the worst end of the range doesn't mean it's a call.
Another bonus of folding this is that you don't go on a tilting rampage after he flips over AA/KK and you curse yourself for your play. This one is player dependant but it used to happen to me all the time.

p.s.: &lt;rant&gt; Less "oh look I run so good at level X" bragging in strategy posts. The credibility of your reply can be judged by the content provided. Posting your winrate over a huge sample size is not neccessary. &lt;/rant&gt;

[Bad Beat Maker]

I was just trying to rick roll someone there. But honestly at $10NL, not any higher, I would be tempted to call here. Lets be serious.

[pbx]

zzz not a rant but merely saying that at NL10 standard donk villain will push this with AQ. Also remember that pokerstove doesnt take count for the fact that a very small part of villains range may be air. Which tends to make this a call more imo.

p.s &lt;rant&gt; the winrate post was in spirit of the thread and for a little bit of fun &lt;/rant&gt;

[Spurious]

[ QUOTE ]
I was just trying to rick roll someone there. But honestly at $10NL, not any higher, I would be tempted to call here. Lets be serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why a line like this one is very effective at those stakes against thinking decent opponents.
People think: "Hmm, if he had AA/KK he wouldnt push, therefore i call with QQ".
It is a coinflip at best. No usual opponent 4bets AI with JJ preflop.

[Caelallaiach]

[ QUOTE ]
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.336% 49.93% 01.40% 36764358 1033849.00 { QdQs }
Hand 1: 48.664% 47.26% 01.40% 34797016 1033849.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }


Its NL10 and him just having air 2-3% of the time makes this a call. But if you tilt easily then I guess you could fold.
At NL25+ Im folding this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do these stats assume that every part of the range is equally likely apart from the fact that you can make AK more ways than you can make AA. If so, I'm not sure these figures are too reliable since it might be true that the Villain is twice as likely to hold KK than JJ say and that would make the result very different. Do you see what I mean? I don't think Villain is as likely to shove with JJ as he is with KK simply because most Villain's wouldn't do that.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
because ive never been a fish, and have been doing what ive been doing. wierd sentence sorry

[/ QUOTE ]

Please stop sucking at posting, thanks

[Waingro]

I don´t see how we can fold here. I see people shove midpairs all the time because they suck. I would call here and be pretty happy about it. If we had some sort of read that this only ever is KK+ and maybe AK that would change things a lot obv.

[Quester]

A fold here with no solid reads would be terrible, IMO. Villain could be squeezing with a mid-PP or another hand that we have killed. We're ahead of his range here.