50NL; AsQh on ddd flop; villian check/calls; leads pot on turn

[Lego05]

Pokertracker has villian at 22.5/18/2 postflop agg. over 89 hands. I remember him more like 18/13 though for some reason.


Ok I have two questions here....first the usual what is my move here question. After answering this though please scroll down a little further and take a crack at the second one....it's interesting I think.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($74.20)
CO ($48.25)
Hero ($50.25)
SB ($90.80)
BB ($48.85)
UTG ($50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, SB calls $1.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($4.50) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.6</font>, SB calls $3.60.

Turn: ($11.70) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $12</font>, Hero ???










Second question in white...highlight to read:


<font color="white"> I timed down thinking that this made like no sense. I eventually figured most likely a draw that just got some help like a flush draw with a straight draw now or flush draw with a pair or some combination of those. So I timed all the way down and I shoved. He folded and the following short chat took place (this is about how it went...it's from memory):

Villian: Hollywood Loser

Me: What's that? I wasn't hollywooding....I was thinking.

Villian: Sure.

Me: Your line made no sense.

Villian: Go read 2+2.

Me: (That made me chuckle a bit.) Don't say that at the tables....and your line still made no sense.

Villian: Don't say what at the tables. 2plus2.com

Soon after he then said that he had blocked my chat.



So my question is what hand have we at 2+2 been advising people to play in this way here at 50NL? Especially one that he then folds to my push??? I'm pretty lost on this one.



</font>

[DennisGPunkt]

stupid comment by him... your line absolutly made sense..

His on the other hand... maybe a babyflush trying to protect his hand... But honestly, i have to idea...

[soded]

Here at 2+2 we advocate protecting our blinds, so he should call with any semi-decent hand and probably woulda raised with anything fairly big, given his stats. (if he's following this reasoning). After that I'm not certain what he'd have. Maybe the 7 helped him and he was holding A7s. I can't see him with 77, I can see him with some lower pp, none of which hit, and maybe he was holding 1 diamond with whatever hand he had, but can't call an all in correctly as you are only giving him 1.5:1 pot odds to win with a draw on the river. Even with an OESD and flush draw, it wouldn't be "correct" to call 1.5:1, (say with 55 one being a diamond or something). Also in HU blind steal position situations, I find c-bets are given less respect, and he could just be trying to bluff you out on the turn... poorly at that...

[kaz2107]

i fold the turn. looks to me like we r bluff catchin only even if he is bluffin he prolly has a ton of equity against our hand.

why did u shove the turn?!?!?! wut worse hands r calling u???

[sightless]

call turn if you think he doesnt have you beat

[jjb108]

Reraise is std here IMO.

Your 2nd question is interesting. Villains line could be a call-cbet and try to take it away line. I can't put him on a hand but maybe 22-33, TT,JJ, whiffed AK,AJ,AT, or complete air although its hard to come up with Air that doesn't have some sort of draw.

Whiffed Ax is the best I can come up with.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
Here at 2+2 we advocate protecting our blinds, so he should call with any semi-decent hand and probably woulda raised with anything fairly big, given his stats. (if he's following this reasoning). After that I'm not certain what he'd have. Maybe the 7 helped him and he was holding A7s. I can't see him with 77, I can see him with some lower pp, none of which hit, and maybe he was holding 1 diamond with whatever hand he had, but can't call an all in correctly as you are only giving him 1.5:1 pot odds to win with a draw on the river. Even with an OESD and flush draw, it wouldn't be "correct" to call 1.5:1, (say with 55 one being a diamond or something). Also in HU blind steal position situations, I find c-bets are given less respect, and he could just be trying to bluff you out on the turn... poorly at that...

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post is pretty much completely wrong:

Calling here OOP with any semi-decent hand is very poor. Most hands should either be 3bet or folded by villian here.

And he's not getting 1.5 to 1. He's getting better than 2 to 1 so calling with a flush draw and OESD would be standard.

[ QUOTE ]
i fold the turn. looks to me like we r bluff catchin only even if he is bluffin he prolly has a ton of equity against our hand.

why did u shove the turn?!?!?! wut worse hands r calling u???

[/ QUOTE ]

Draws I think. Maybe even KdQx. And yea I'd expect his draws have decent equity vs. me, but I just didn't believe that he would play a hand that already had me like that. (Of course I didn't think he'd play a draw or a worse hand like that either really but this seemed more likely to me than the former.)


[ QUOTE ]
call turn if you think he doesnt have you beat


[/ QUOTE ]


Really? Cause basically the only way he doesn't have me beat is if he has some draw or a piece and a draw.



[ QUOTE ]


Your 2nd question is interesting. Villains line could be a call-cbet and try to take it away line. I can't put him on a hand but maybe 22-33, TT,JJ, whiffed AK,AJ,AT, or complete air although its hard to come up with Air that doesn't have some sort of draw.

Whiffed Ax is the best I can come up with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so too. It's hard to figure what he played like this IMO. And the fact that he implied this is the way 2+2 would advise his hand to be played really surprised me and makes me really wonder what he actually had.

[Lego05]

Bump.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]

i fold the turn. looks to me like we r bluff catchin only even if he is bluffin he prolly has a ton of equity against our hand.

why did u shove the turn?!?!?! wut worse hands r calling u???



[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
Draws I think. Maybe even KdQx. And yea I'd expect his draws have decent equity vs. me, but I just didn't believe that he would play a hand that already had me like that. (Of course I didn't think he'd play a draw or a worse hand like that either really but this seemed more likely to me than the former.)



[/ QUOTE ] my point was worse case is he has some draw. and this draw has good equity against our hand. my second point was that the river is gonna b rediculously difficult to play on basically n e river. if it is a blank wut r we plannning on doin?? wut if it completes a back door straight?? roughly half of the deck is bad for us and imo the other half makes us still confused and really lost still. so dump the turn and make things simple.

another thing... yea i know... nothing makes but who knows wut he is doin this with. the problem is he is obv sometimes doin weird [censored] like this with hands that we r drawing dead against. and when he is semibluffing or w/e we r still only slightly ahead and r deff gonna b in a spot where even if he doesnt hit he can steal the pot from us on the river if he wants n e wayz. so we r really only slightly ahead if he is capable of pulling a bluff off every once in a while when he misses too.

shoving totally turns our hand into a bluff tho which is why i dont like it at all.

EDIT:
so basically i like folding because all other options suck dick imo

[Lego05]

Shoving doesn't totally turn the hand into a bluff if he'll call with some draw. That's value.


And your point about the river then being hard to play if I call also really contributed to my decision to shove rather than call.



I certainly coulda just folded....just couldn't think of anything that I could really give him credit for.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Shoving doesn't totally turn the hand into a bluff if he'll call with some draw. That's value.


And your point about the river then being hard to play if I call also really contributed to my decision to shove rather than call.



I certainly coulda just folded....just couldn't think of anything that I could really give him credit for.

[/ QUOTE ]yea i am the same way. i cant put him on a range at all. lol. but given that i think it is a few monsters and a few draws. so i think we r behind the range. thus i like folding. but yea i think a shove is better then a call because i cant see n e one being able to make a decent play on the river. basically i think it will b impossible to play the river corectly so calling the turn is a really bad imo.

yea i guess he might call with a few draws if we shove. cant remeber the stack sizes tho. would he b getting good enough odds to call with a lost of combo draws or not?!?!?

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]


yea i guess he might call with a few draws if we shove. cant remeber the stack sizes tho. would he b getting good enough odds to call with a lost of combo draws or not?!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

He'd be getting a bit better than 2 to 1 if I remember correctly. It doesn't really matter though. Even if I don't have enough money to make the odds incorrect for him it's still +ev for me to get it all-in vs. a draw.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


yea i guess he might call with a few draws if we shove. cant remeber the stack sizes tho. would he b getting good enough odds to call with a lost of combo draws or not?!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

He'd be getting a bit better than 2 to 1 if I remember correctly. It doesn't really matter though. Even if I don't have enough money to make the odds incorrect for him it's still +ev for me to get it all-in vs. a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]well wut i was tryin to get at is if he isnt gettin odds to call with many draws then he will not call with many draws. so u would b gettin called by a higher percentage of hands that have u dominated then hands that we r slightly ahead of.

i still can see this being the best line given how way behind/slightly ahead of his range that we r. and given that he reads 2p2 at least some and therefore has at least the faintest idea of wut the hell is goin on (altho this line is terrible ldo)

[Lego05]

Yea true....I did expect him to call with a bunch of draws though.

[kaz2107]

heres my attempt at poker stoving this. i cant really even think of a ton of combo draws that he will have at this point of the hand. so meh.


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1,716 games 0.031 secs 55,354 games/sec

Board: Qd 8d 6d 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.056% 42.02% 02.04% 721 35.00 { AsQh }
Hand 1: 55.944% 53.90% 02.04% 925 35.00 { 88, 66, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad5d, 87s, 76s, AcKd, AdKc, AdKh, AdKs, AhKd, AsKd, AcQd, AdQc, AdQh, AdQs, AhQd, AsQd, AdJc, AdJh, AdJs, AdTc, AdTh, AdTs, JcTd, JdTc, JdTh, JdTs, 9d8c, 9d8h, 9d8s, 9c7d, 9d7c, 9d7h, 9d7s, 9h7d, 9s7d }


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