River my Flush and madness breaks out

[Lostit]

What would you do in this spot. I make my flush on the river and the PFR, who is 23/23/6 decides to push, and we're both deep stacked.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $50.00
BB: $41.90
UTG: $96.55
CO: $24.90
Hero (BTN): $96.75

Preflop: Hero is dealt 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 Players)
BB calls $0.50, <font color="red">UTG raises to $2.00</font>, CO folds, Hero calls $2.00, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($6.50) J/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $4.50</font>, Hero calls $4.50, <font color="red">BB raises to $9.00</font>, UTG calls $4.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $28.00</font>, BB calls $19.00, UTG calls $19.00

Turn: ($90.50) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($90.50) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets all-in for $66.55</font>, Hero ????

I have $66 left (at NL 50).... do you call here?

Also, villains river aggression factor is an 8, but this kind of a bet is a little different than the rest.

[f1sh4d1nner]

Call the river bet, but why did you play your weak fd like that on the flop?

[Bantam222]

I think id call here...when you raise the flop like that you are committing yourself to the pot if a flush hits. Its only a 2/3 pot size bet even though 130BB, not a huge over bet compared to the pot.

Because the river was Ace of clubs rather then some other one, i feel a lot better about my hand. There are a lot less hands he could have that beat you. 23/23 isn't that loose, KcQc is obviously a concern but is he going to be raising Kc10c UTG? there just aren't many hands that beat you. Also the ace connects with a lot of hands making 2 pairs and other good hands. He could have AJ or A9.

He could simply be sensing weakness and trying to steal it, note the high river agg factor.

[Nick C]

UTG clearly had something he liked on the flop to take all that heat (even on the installment plan). And it could be KcQc, but that's just one hand, and the turn check-through might have confused him.

I think you have to call, getting over 2:1. He could have a set (AA in particular, although it's possible he started to slowplay, say, JJ once he started getting played back at), and there really aren't many flushes besides KcQc that we'd expect him to have.

Still, I wouldn't actually be happy to be facing this push.

[wingchunflush]

I think this is often a better flush, not saying i can fold but i am not happy.

[Lostit]

[ QUOTE ]
Call the river bet, but why did you play your weak fd like that on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're talking about the call/re-raise line I took on the flop?

Basically the call from the villain one meant draw to me, and the minraise, from the other villain was something that I saw him do earlier when he was unsure of himself. Sensing weakness from both, and having the betting re-opened, I tried to make it look like I had a monster with a semi-bluff re-raise. I figured if the villain who had position on me called, he would be almost out, so I wasn't worried about later streets with him. I had position on the big stack and figured if he called I might be able to get a free card on the turn if I needed it.

In the end, I kept both in, built the pot, and got my free card. Never mind the fact that a little fold equity never hurt anyone.

[Lostit]

I ended up calling him, and he turned over 8c 10c and I lost. I had a feeling I was beat there also, but I was wondering if folding is ever proper in that spot. On an unpaired board, against someone that aggressive, especially as a PFR OOP, its hard to assume he was doing that with 2 clubs preflop, neither one an ace.

Thanks for the feedback.

[f1sh4d1nner]

amazing flop for him then, a bit surprised he didnt try to get it in on the flop

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call the river bet, but why did you play your weak fd like that on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're talking about the call/re-raise line I took on the flop?

Basically the call from the villain one meant draw to me, and the minraise, from the other villain was something that I saw him do earlier when he was unsure of himself. Sensing weakness from both, and having the betting re-opened, I tried to make it look like I had a monster with a semi-bluff re-raise. I figured if the villain who had position on me called, he would be almost out, so I wasn't worried about later streets with him. I had position on the big stack and figured if he called I might be able to get a free card on the turn if I needed it.

In the end, I kept both in, built the pot, and got my free card. Never mind the fact that a little fold equity never hurt anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rationale for the call/reraise seems good, but I do have a couple of counter-observations:

(1) If the PFR has a draw, like you suspect, then that's not good news for you unless you can drive him out (I mean, the most obvious draw on the flop is the flush draw).

(2) Quite likely, you paid more on the flop for your "free" card than you would have had to on the turn.


Folding equity is great, if you have it, but you do need it.

Nevertheless, getting called twice on the flop isn't such a horrible result either provided you're the only one with a flush draw and no one has a set.

[bknollenberg]

i haven't read this entire thread, but i like your flop line a lot. however, i think you solidified your hand on the turn, as you would have bet out hard if you had a set or two pair given how draw heavy the board is.

as played, i think you 100% of the time have to push the turn. i did see the results, but i don't think it affects how i would play this. i think when both players flat call your raise on the flop, you can take them off a set, two pair, and an overpair. i have no idea what BB had that makes sense her besides Q10 or a heinously played QJ or KJ type hand (well Q10 is played heinously too). when they both flat call the flop i think you have to either give credit to one of the players for a better flush draw or at least give it strong consideration. with that said, pushing the turn here is perfect.

let me know what you all think, but here is my thinking behind the hand.

1) when they both flat call your raise on the flop, their range narrows drastically. unless these guys are total headcases, they aren't flat calling with 2 pair, an overpair, or a set. i can't see them calling with a pair really, as the only pairs that would be in the pot would be top pair or an overpair and their lines would have been different (fold / push).
2) when you hit the turn, as i said, i'd probably give you credit for the best hand here. i'm not saying put 100% weight on it, but i think given how it played out it was likely. you HAVE to push here. your stack isn't big enough compared to the pot to check, you destroy the set / 2 pair / overpair you were representing, and you're letting the draw at beating you, especially since it's likely your flush isn't good.
3) if one of the villains has totally played disgusting poker with a set or 2 pair here, that leaves one player that could have the flush draw, which lowers the probability one of them does. so you have redraw outs for sure.

yes, no?

[mdm13]

[ QUOTE ]
I think id call here...when you raise the flop like that you are committing yourself to the pot if a flush hits. Its only a 2/3 pot size bet even though 130BB, not a huge over bet compared to the pot.

Because the river was Ace of clubs rather then some other one, i feel a lot better about my hand. There are a lot less hands he could have that beat you. 23/23 isn't that loose, KcQc is obviously a concern but is he going to be raising Kc10c UTG? there just aren't many hands that beat you. Also the ace connects with a lot of hands making 2 pairs and other good hands. He could have AJ or A9.

He could simply be sensing weakness and trying to steal it, note the high river agg factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I am a 21.5/17.5/3.5 and I raise KTs UTG.

[kindergartencop]

i like turn push given your flop line. i think the only hand pfr makes that move with on river that you beat is aa.

[Lostit]

The one thing, that I think is being omitted from this discussion is the fact that this hand is basically big stack poker.

I agree that the proper turn in retrospect was to push the turn, knowing what I know now, but look back at the situation. I think its actually a toss up between push/check behind

Pot = $90
Button has $11 left
SB has $66 left.

SB Checks, I push for $66.

What have you got?

1.) Pot would equal $156.
2.) Button would be getting approx 15-1 on his money for a call, so he's in. Pot is now $167
3.) Back to SB with $66 behind. He's getting approx 2.5 - 1 to call there. With all the draws on that board, plus the fact that it is NL50 and people do play sets &amp; 2pair disgustingly, chances are good that I'm going to showdown with at BEST a 30% chance, but more likely some outs are discounted and probably only a 25% chance of actually winning the hand. Throw in the fold equity there and it probably even between the two possibilities. In reality I only had 6 outs, or a 12% chance.

I think its close either way when looking at the odds that were available to calculate at the time of the decision.

[NL Newbie]

Hes got a flushyy wusshhyyyy, he's not a silly billy and hes playing the river like he has a 10ft willllly.

Like my poetry? foldy woldy

Fold preflop, i dont like raising the flop - just call again.

if you have Kc 2c its very different

[goblinhat]

I dont understand your raise on the flop at all really, your re raising after already a raise and a re raise. Ok now i have read ur reasoning for that, however i do still think its a mistake putting that much money in the pot when a call might give you little outs( as u said u thought the original raiser might be on a draw)and u also have to fold ( just i think?) if he pushes back on you with a set.
I think chances of a pure bluff are low in this situation despite checks on turn as so much money in pot and any flush draw has made it,(also means he is unlikely to push a set) despite making ur hand i think u can lay it down with the knowledge he is likely to have the flush and any flush beats u.

Wish this post was a little more fluent.