Limping UTG!!!

[barabe]

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $7.95
BB: $10.05
Hero (UTG): $10.15
MP: $9.90
CO: $10.20
BTN: $1.55

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 Players)
Hero calls $0.10, 4 folds, BB checks

Well, I have heard that limping UTG is a horrible move... But what do I do with hands like this? Just fold? I can't raise it OOP. What about Axs? Mid and Low SC???

[hustler4life]

I would fold fold all of those hands utg. Its likley you'll have to play the hand oop and there are still 5 players left to act, any of whom could raise. None of those hands are really the type of hand you want to call a raise with.

[salesbeast]

6 handed=RAISE it up or if you decide to limp like this hand play agro after flop or be prepared to fold it and move on.

[Parvex]

Openlimping in 6Max is in generally not that good, because other than in full ring games it might just create a pot of 2.5 to 3.5 BB, which makes it hard to extract a good portion of value, while an Openlimp on a Full Ring Table can easily create a pot of 4 up to 5.5 or even more BB. Way better to get paid off if you hit.
Also raising gives you a chance to win the Blinds right away. You can't accomplish this by raising.

First In in 6Max Games you basically have to decide if your hand is worth playing for a raise or not. If it's not, dump it. If it is: Raise it up.

[salesbeast]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold fold all of those hands utg. Its likley you'll have to play the hand oop and there are still 5 players left to act, any of whom could raise. None of those hands are really the type of hand you want to call a raise with.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you will go broke playing NLHE...you have to play some hands like this to win.

[barabe]

I have conflicting answers here.... I like the one that says raise it or fold it... Can I get more opinion from soemoen who can give ma straight answer???

[salesbeast]

[ QUOTE ]
I have conflicting answers here.... I like the one that says raise it or fold it... Can I get more opinion from soemoen who can give ma straight answer???

[/ QUOTE ]

I gave you a good opinion...play agro post flop even 3-4 bet a pot.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
I have conflicting answers here.... I like the one that says raise it or fold it... Can I get more opinion from soemoen who can give ma straight answer???

[/ QUOTE ]


Straight answer is that you can raise hands like the ones you mention UTG in a 6max game ... some do it all the time and some prefer not to

[barabe]

thanks.. im gonna mix up my play here by going half half then.

[ssnyc]

Q 10 suited 6 handed falls into my UTG raise portfolio...standard 3X just like AA or AK or 99

[Spinners]

fold that all day utg.

[slush420]

on a table with passive players (regarding PFR%) I am raising this to 3.5bb UTG about 80% of the time and folding 20%. on a table with aggressive players (regarding PFR%) I'm flipping those percentages around. and reply to the e-mail I sent you OP

[Spinners]

exactly.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks.. im gonna mix up my play here by going half half then.

[/ QUOTE ]



Good idea ... limping is possible, but playing without initiative oop does not have many fans (and is better saved for hyper aggro games that does NOT exist at small stakes )

[RedBarracuda]

oh my.. just fold. it's NL10 and no need to get fancy..

[Peter Harris]

pretty easy fold as standard. If table is weak then it's a safe raise but i'd be folding there upwards of 90% of the time.

[Nogatsira]

Think about how you will make money AFTER the flop.
You are out of position so when you hit a flush or straightdraw on the flop you could semibluff. But what if you get called till the river and don't hit? You'll often find yourself in spew spots.
Also, you give the BB a chance to see the flop for free even though you might have the best hand. Whats the point in that?

Open limping in 6max is just bad (ok some like to limp with 22 and stuff like that utg, but imho thats still bad cause it's pretty obvious that you're holding a small pocket pair)

Raise, be the agressor, pick up the blinds every now and then aswell, let them fear you!

[Nogatsira]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
thanks.. im gonna mix up my play here by going half half then.

[/ QUOTE ]



Good idea ... limping is possible, but playing without initiative oop does not have many fans (and is better saved for hyper aggro games that does NOT exist at small stakes )

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] Friday evening
[x] Drunk people
[x] NL10 at Stars

Qualify

[ICMoney]

Don't be "that" fish.

Raise if you are feeling frisky.

Fold if you know what's good for you.

[bknollenberg]

if you're going to limp with that, then you have to realize you'll limp with AA there sometimes, AK, 88, 44, 78c, etc. if you're going to play that Q10h though, raise and expect to hit a flop you may not like. i'd just fold, as you can get yourself in trouble with hands like that, ie. you'll likely be OOP, your top pair is likely outkicked, etc.

[KRE8R]

No reason to play this hand. Just fold it. Everyone at NL10 is a station anyway.

[Spanky1974]

[ QUOTE ]
I have conflicting answers here.... I like the one that says raise it or fold it... Can I get more opinion from soemoen who can give ma straight answer???

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise or fold. If you think you can make money at this table with this hand, raise it up. Default play for a learning player would be to fold in EP. I don't think either play makes too much difference in a vacuum.

[jerryf1914]

the straight answer for 10nl is that you should limp this hand sometimes and fold it the rest of the time.

[TheRenaissance]

There is only one correct answer to this question:
It depends.

Most of the advice in this thread so far seem to be based on pretty simple rule-of-thumb thinking, ie 'I has hand x in position y so I must always do z'. The truth is that all options are open to you - fold, raise, limp. It depends. To the people that say always raise/fold, try thinking of a situation where limping in utg actually might be a good option.

[Khumalo]

I'm having a difficult time thinking of a situation where limping Q10s UTG is a good option six-handed.

To the OP, I recommend considering a raise with this hand when first to act only if a few conditions are met.

1) The table climate is favorable. This can mean several things: tight-passive players who will give you their blinds easily, one or two loose-weak players who call you but fold a lot of flops to your c-bets, super-stations who call with any two cards and pay you off with any piece / draw when you flop TP or better (without semi-bluffing you or pressuring you), players whom you have good reads on and can manipulate well when good spots arise, etc.

2) You have a decent idea how to play out of position with marginal holdings versus one or two weak-to-decent opponents. This usually involves a lot of cautious play, a wider than usual check-calling range, the occasional bit of check-raising against certain types of villains, sporadic block-betting on the turn to set the price going to the river versus passive pay-off wizards, and other lines you'll learn with experience.

Being out of position is always going to be a tricky aspect of NLHE, and your short-handed UTG range (once you move past bare beginner status) should be dynamic and adaptive.

[Spanky1974]

[ QUOTE ]
There is only one correct answer to this question:
It depends.

Most of the advice in this thread so far seem to be based on pretty simple rule-of-thumb thinking, ie 'I has hand x in position y so I must always do z'. The truth is that all options are open to you - fold, raise, limp. It depends. To the people that say always raise/fold, try thinking of a situation where limping in utg actually might be a good option.

[/ QUOTE ]

After my first 100K hands, I looked through my pokertraker stats pretty hard, and found that I was bleeding money in hands where I limped or called raises. I think open-limping is pretty spewy unless you incorporate it into your game, which I think isn't really necessary at 6max. In FR, I think it may be a bigger part of an ABC strategy. About the only hands I could ever see open-limping with would be smaller pairs with the occasional big hand thrown in.

[clowntable]

[ QUOTE ]
fold that all day utg.

[/ QUOTE ]
qft
You usually want to be extremly tight UTG and UTG+1 (raising 15% or less)
CO and BTN raise this all day

[scallop]

I even think KQ/KJ/A9s arent worth much alot of the time to raise UTG.

[Pokerdemic]

Has this forum already forgotten the brilliant post "Dear uNL, you're not good enough"???

There are no conditions in uNL that would justify playing QTs UTG. At a table of 3/3 nits so you can steal the blinds? Maybe.

Fold it, fold it, fold it. Every time!!! *You do not need to mix up your game at NL10* You're opponents aren't paying attention anyway. What you need to do is learn the fundamentals, position being a most important concept.

If you play QTs UTG and raise it up, one of two things will likely happen:

1) You will flop a pair, and if you meet resistance from villain you are going to be out-kicked unless villain is stupid. But even stupid people make hands from time to time.

2) you will flop a pair and combo draw, which you won't know how to play because you will be OOP. And playing draws OOP is difficult.



I respect the fact that poker is a situationally dependent game, and perhaps QTs can be played profitably UTG at NL10. But developing bad habits is no good. And if you are trying to develop an ABC TAG game, which most people that post in uNL are trying to do, fold it.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm having a difficult time thinking of a situation where limping Q10s UTG is a good option six-handed.

[/ QUOTE ]
When the other people at your table

1) are major calling stations pre-flop and rarely ever raise

and

2) call down deveral substantial bets with hands like middle pair/top pair.

In that situation a pre-flop raise would not enable you to take down pots with cbets while you will get paid off even if you don't start building the pot pre-flop.

Situations like that can come around sporadically on loose/passive tables and if you identify them as such a limp would be the right play. (You are playing for 2pair or better then.)

I don't think you will often find tables that stay in this dynamic over several orbits although I have seen it happen.

[corsakh]

Quite the controrary Trigs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The only reason to consider limping UTG is for implementing limp reraise strategy on very aggro tables. If everyone is just a calling station, no way I think I am good enough to outplay 3-4 other people postflop in an unraised pot with this hand from this position. The times your gonna be dominated / playing RIO - just terrible /images/graemlins/smile.gif I may limp it in LP for the reasons your decribed though if I think that my raise is not going to cut the field to HU. But then I am more likely to raise more preflop than to overlimp.

And yes, I almost always fold this UTG. The only case i may raise it is when there is a huge, I mean huuuuuuge, fish sitting in the blinds and the players behind me are somewhat tight.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
If everyone is just a calling station, no way I think I am good enough to outplay 3-4 other people postflop in an unraised pot with this hand from this position.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to outplay people who stack off with middle pair in unraised pots. You flop 2pair or better often enough for the 1bb investment to be worth it.

!!This is for the special case situation I described above. I fold this all the time at normal tables!!

[corsakh]

Ye but then you end up playing it for face value pretty often. And two pairs never freaking hold in limped pots. And the Q high flush is never good. Soo much trouble /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
There is only one correct answer to this question:
It depends.

Most of the advice in this thread so far seem to be based on pretty simple rule-of-thumb thinking, ie 'I has hand x in position y so I must always do z'. The truth is that all options are open to you - fold, raise, limp. It depends. To the people that say always raise/fold, try thinking of a situation where limping in utg actually might be a good option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just want to note that I virtually never play this hand utg 6-handed, and if I did I would usually raise. However, I do believe situations occasionally pop up where it might be a good idea to limp. Say a table full of loose passive callstations, both pre and post, with deepish stacks, a limp might be good to see if you can flop a strong hand. With a table like that you shouldnt have much trouble building a pot postflop when you hit big - even if it starts out small.

[jtr]

I'd limp with it UTG if the other players all had low PF raise numbers, and tended to min-raise when they did raise. A call despite being OOP would make sense then, unless they were all short-stacked.

[Pokey]

I was tempted to make a flippant response to this thread, but there are some interesting and deep poker questions that revolve around this issue. Ultimately, I think:

1. The people who say "raise or fold" are close.
2. The people who say "just fold it" are closer.
3. The people who say "it depends" have got it.

Our hand is weak and our position is awful. As poker players, we should realize that position is king in no-limit, and that without it we're going to have a very hard time making money. Sure, every once in awhile we'll flop KJx or J9x and have a nicely disguised straight draw, but even there we're only going to complete our draw occasionally, and the payoff won't be particularly great if we're in a limped pot. We'll have a hard time bluffing at a pot OOP, we'll have a hard time extracting value on a Q-high or T-high board, and we won't be able to bet hard without at LEAST two pair. Much is lined up against this hand, and my default play is definitely going to be to fold this from EP.

This is the kind of hand where I need a pretty good reason NOT to fold. Examples might be:

1. The people on my left are overly tight and the people in the blinds are overly loose. If I've made extremely good table selection, this isn't an unlikely scenario. As such, a raise could easily buy me the button and give me a good shot at a nice win, either with a successful continuation bet or with a sneaky TPNK-type hand. Here, raising would be the most +EV move in my arsenal.

2. My table image is overly tight -- I've folded every hand for the past few orbits, and I think my folding equity is exquisitely high. Here, I could (VERY OCCASIONALLY) make a "blind steal" from UTG, knowing that I'll have a good chance at picking up the blinds. Even better, there's a chance that I get into a fight and show down a winner with my QTs(!), "proving" to the table that I'm a maniac and getting me tons of action when I actually have a hand worth raising preflop. This is a pure image play that you can make with ATC, but only when conditions are perfect, and even then it needs to be done extremely sparingly.

As to smooth-calling, there are a few reasons for that one, too:


1. The table doesn't fold or raise. I'll get a multi-way pot for 1 BB, and if I hit well I'll extract a fortune from one or more imbeciles. Here, limping is the right play.

2. There are some TPPs sitting on my left who get married to hands postflop entirely too easily. They don't often play a hand, but once they do they just can't find a fold. For these folks, the trick is to entice them into ponying up that first BB to get the game started; after that, they become donators just like the more traditional calling stations. Also, since they are passive preflop you don't have to worry abou them dropping a raise on you and forcing you off your cruddy hand. Don't think these guys don't exist -- those 9/1 rocks get BORED playing their set-mining game, and when they actually see a flop, they don't want the fun and excitement to end -- they'll call down with their 99, knowing that T7432 couldn't possibly have hit an UTG's calling range....

----------

In general, fold this. If you want to get cutesy with limping, do it by completing the SB more often: it's much cheaper and there are far fewer opportunities for someone to raise behind you. All the reasons to complete from UTG are MUCH stronger when you're in the SB.

[Gelford]

Pokey, My and many others default is to raise it pf, I need a reason to fold it.

One such reason could be:

I am playing 10NL and I do not have much in terms of postflop skill and people tend to be calling stations, so I prefer to just be a mindless nit and just build my roll the easy way untill I hit levels, where I might get forced to open my game in order to survive. (Which is perfectly valid imo)

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

Pokey, My and many others default is to raise it pf, I need a reason to fold it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've been called a nit before, and I never shy away from the title. I'm comfortable with it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]

One such reason could be:

I am playing 10NL and I do not have much in terms of postflop skill and people tend to be calling stations, so I prefer to just be a mindless nit and just build my roll the easy way untill I hit levels, where I might get forced to open my game in order to survive. (Which is perfectly valid imo)


[/ QUOTE ]

First off, that's an incredibly good reason to fold at uNL.

Secondly, that reason doesn't stop applying at higher stakes tables. "Opening up your game" is important, but if you look at the really good players they open up their game IN LATE POSITION. Playing very loose from the button is doable for a good hand reader and under the right table conditions. Playing very loose from UTG is probably spewing even for a really good hand reader, and it's DEFINITELY spewing for me. If the 10NL tables are sooooo much worse than the 100NL tables, then it might be possible that playing QTs from UTG is +EV, but I would find that surprising.

All told, I agree that "as you move up" you should be planning to "open up your game." However, I'd much rather open up by raising/playing 10% more hands from the button than 10% (or even 5%) more hands from UTG. Remember: money on the poker table flows clockwise, and if the people in the hand are sitting at your left they're more likely to get your money than the other way around, barring a VERY severe skill differential.

[Gelford]

nm ...

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
3. The people who say "it depends" have got it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I win the prize!
/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

Let us look at a stylized example ... you play heads up and you hold the SB first too act (and we ignore BB play now)

Let's assume that the BB defends with 30% of his hands and there is no rake. Let us also assume that BB does not adjust but is stuck at the 30% for all eternity.


How wide should you open in the SB ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any two cards, of course, making a minraise every time. After all, you're making an even-odds bet (1.5 BBs to win 1.5 BBs) and you'll win it 70% of the time immediately, not to mention the wins that come later on.

I'm missing something, though -- how does this apply to opening QTs UTG at a six-max table? If you're trying to say that there are conditions in which any behavior can be profit-maximizing at a particular poker table, I completely agree with you (hence my "it depends" comment). However, I think that without any reads and without any additional information, your default play with a hand like QTs should probably be to fold preflop UTG.

Of course, I've never been entirely comfortable with easily dominated hands or with suited one-gappers. For example, I'd gladly raise 76s UTG at the same six-handed table. We all open our games up in different ways, but these weak broadway hands just give me fits postflop -- they hit no more often than 75s, but when they hit we're always looking over our shoulder for the dominating hand that's coming along to clobber us.

[Jamougha]

The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

[Gelford]

Oh .. you saw the post ... well even if you make a potsized raise in that example, then raising 100% will be profitable and you don't have to worry about playing postflop or cbetting.

And the same applies at a nitty 200NL table with your not uncommon gathering of say 18/14 'nits' or tighter.

At a table nitty as this planning around commitment goes out the window, since it is sooo hard to get paid off, but due to the 'nits' lack of willingness to enter pots, you can just chip up nice an easy by basically taping over your cards and just raising a lot and cbetting according to board texture

That is the other end of the scale the point is that you go from planning around commitment to planning around stealing, the force of QTs is not hitting TPBK but hitting strong draws, that have a lot of equity enabling you to play for stacks on equity alone.


So to sum up
1. Despite whatever Sklansky claims in NLTAP, planing around stealing is a valid and even sometimes necessary approach.

2. SCs, SC1s and Axs shine in such a context as they have high equity once they hit something thus acting as a safety net and these cards alone open your game a good deal (even tho table conditions actually might be such that you can so to say tape over your hole cards)

3. And off course, opening up adds value to your pf monster's


Etc.



Table condition can sometimes be such, that you don't really have to be armed with more than a nice loose aggressive pf game to show a profit, postflop fading in the background (I know, postflop is the most importants skill, it is just that there are times, where you don't need them)

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you incorporate ep limping in your game (krantz style, dunno if he does it in practice but he posted about it a while back, then adding QTs for balance it what makes you want to limp it)

[KIZDuck]

i did't think anybody here raises this kind of hands utg before i read the thread.
6max i raise it from CO or maybe UTG+1 if the table is thight.

but im a nit and im working on a more laggy style.
i dont think raising hands like this utg is a good lag style and i never openlimp utg!

[Jamougha]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you incorporate ep limping in your game (krantz style, dunno if he does it in practice but he posted about it a while back, then adding QTs for balance it what makes you want to limp it)

[/ QUOTE ]

I just haven't seen any good evidence that open-limping in early position is good strategy. I know of only 3 players who succeeded in using it at significant stakes (3/6+). All were pre-UIGEA. Since then one has changed his game to meow-chow TAG, one has bustoed from 10/20 to 100NL and idk about the other.

[Jamougha]

[ QUOTE ]

i dont think raising hands like this utg is a good lag style

[/ QUOTE ]

It's fine and many good players do it.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you incorporate ep limping in your game (krantz style, dunno if he does it in practice but he posted about it a while back, then adding QTs for balance it what makes you want to limp it)

[/ QUOTE ]

I just haven't seen any good evidence that open-limping in early position is good strategy. I know of only 3 players who succeeded in using it at significant stakes (3/6+). All were pre-UIGEA. Since then one has changed his game to meow-chow TAG, one has bustoed from 10/20 to 100NL and idk about the other.

[/ QUOTE ]


I would never do it as default, but in games with a 'I must punish the weak limpers' 2+2 bot in lp ensuring that he will raise with a wide range suddenly a lot of hands that feel bad against a call after raising initially due to the more narrow calling ranges like AJ find life


You can min reraise to get a nice target spr or just call and play poker


Still it is oop and all, but you can do it I believe (still on the experimenting stage tho)

[Motorcycle Mike]

[ QUOTE ]
Has this forum already forgotten the brilliant post "Dear uNL, you're not good enough"???

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone have the link to this?

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you incorporate ep limping in your game (krantz style, dunno if he does it in practice but he posted about it a while back, then adding QTs for balance it what makes you want to limp it)

[/ QUOTE ]

I just haven't seen any good evidence that open-limping in early position is good strategy. I know of only 3 players who succeeded in using it at significant stakes (3/6+). All were pre-UIGEA. Since then one has changed his game to meow-chow TAG, one has bustoed from 10/20 to 100NL and idk about the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aba and Ivey all limp utg a ton. Then they limp/reraise a ton too.

[gbporkpie]

I play 5-max and I'm raising this bad boy pf almost every time.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

One such reason could be:

I am playing 10NL and I do not have much in terms of postflop skill and people tend to be calling stations, so I prefer to just be a mindless nit and just build my roll the easy way untill I hit levels, where I might get forced to open my game in order to survive. (Which is perfectly valid imo)


[/ QUOTE ]

First off, that's an incredibly good reason to fold at uNL.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a reason at all for folding. The looser your opponents play, the more you should loosen up also, because your substandard hands still fare well against their range. Also, if they are calling stations (or really in any way terrible) post-flop, then that's also only an argument for playing even more hands, to abuse their poor play in later streets.

Even if you're not an expert post-flop player yourself, it's probably good to throw yourself into these marginal spots once in a while (and post about them).

[corsakh]

[x] But how much do you loose?

[Havok]

I liked pokey's response. But, igore any player that says you should always fold this. Limping is okay if you also sometimes limp with your big hands. And the good players might just a call a good hand they would usually raise with. Of course limping here depends greatly how the table is. Is everyone playing tight? Do people not raise PF enough. Have you limped with a big hand before.
With all that said. Most of the time you should fold. But, if as you can see table conditions permit. Limping is not a bad play either. And even still raising would be good sometimes as well. Know your table and you will succeed more with these types of hands. Just don't make a habit of limping too often so the good players don't punish you for it.

[DaycareInferno]

i don't limp very often, but in games with a bunch of stations, i'll limp up front sometimes, Axs and small pp mostly, because they can make the nuts/pseudonuts most easily, and i won't get enough folds to play them agressively. its not something i do a lot of online though.

i think if you're going to limp some hands up front that its important that you do it with at least a couple of differnet hand types though. there's a lot of players that limp pp up front, and nothing else, just like there's a lot of players that call raises in the blinds with pp and nothing else. that puts you at a big disadvantage against good players, because its so transparent, and you'll get blown off your hand a lot postflop by worse hands.

another thing to consider is that in some games agression levels are so high that it can be pretty tempting to limp hands like 22 to protect yourself from chucking it to a 3bet, and with higher implied odds than normal against opponents that are also agressive postflop.

[IMustStopTilting]

The link to "Dear uNL, you're not good enough"

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11945509&page=0&fpart=1& vc=1)

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
The link to "Dear uNL, you're not good enough"

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11945509&page=0&fpart=1& vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite the fact he drives me bananas. he is right.

Also too,

In vegas I open limped UTG once while someone was sweating me. They told me if I did it again they were taking the laptop away.

In seriousness at this point must of the cons outtweigh the pros by a lot.

[Motorcycle Mike]

Thank you sir!