The old if I check I lose play...so why not bet

[salesbeast]

I hate checking only to lose and norm will fire a nice bet and take it down...good play or bad play or player specific?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $95.45
Hero (BB): $47.05
UTG: $48.65
MP: $17.45
CO: $59.55
BTN: $22.60

Preflop: Hero is dealt K/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.50</font>, BTN calls $1.50, SB folds, Hero calls $1.00

Flop: ($4.75) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $2.00</font>, BTN folds, Hero calls $2.00

Turn: ($8.75) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $3.50</font>, Hero calls $3.50

River: ($15.75) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $10.00</font>, CO folds

Pot Size: $25.75 ($0.75 Rake)

[scallop]

Title should be "I think I chased to float, but now I'm not sure I have the cajones to fire"

Your line = flush draw.

Fold PF.

Dont do this sorta stuff. You dont need to.

[sightless]

reload before hand starts
PF i like 3betting to 7.50$ or so
your hand is pretty good and this is a good time to raise and win it preflop


fold on the flop you have king high and this is a bad flop for you

[salesbeast]

But why fold KQ pre in a 6 max game?? I value that hand like AJ in fr is that not correct?

[scallop]

[ QUOTE ]
reload before hand starts
PF i like 3betting to 7.50$ or so
your hand is pretty good and this is a good time to raise and win it preflop


fold on the flop you have king high and this is a bad flop for you

[/ QUOTE ]


Why are you advocating 3-betting a marginal holding OOP ?

[itWASaDREAM]

I think you can raise pf here to win most of the time.

also, what do you except to get called with when your hand looks so much like a draw. every draw got there by the river and you should be able yo bluff the river and fold most 2 pair or worse hands. also, I don't understand your plan in this hand. your floating oop on two streets. doesn't make any sense to me....

[scallop]

[ QUOTE ]
But why fold KQ pre in a 6 max game?? I value that hand like AJ in fr is that not correct?

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not really folding the hand im folding the position


KQ is a fine holding, but its not the nuts, and its tough to play OOP in a multiway raised pot, and I dont even think it's a close decision.

[itWASaDREAM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reload before hand starts
PF i like 3betting to 7.50$ or so
your hand is pretty good and this is a good time to raise and win it preflop


fold on the flop you have king high and this is a bad flop for you

[/ QUOTE ]


Why are you advocating 3-betting a marginal holding OOP ?

[/ QUOTE ]

because your going to fold a lot of better AJ type hands. and if he's a semi solid player his late position range is so large, but his thre bet call range is much more narrow. he is going to be folding a lot of pp when he misses sets.

[sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reload before hand starts
PF i like 3betting to 7.50$ or so
your hand is pretty good and this is a good time to raise and win it preflop


fold on the flop you have king high and this is a bad flop for you

[/ QUOTE ]


Why are you advocating 3-betting a marginal holding OOP ?

[/ QUOTE ]

its a good spot for it. Co opened, button cold called, lots of dead money in the pot and we are way ahead of their range

[scallop]

This reply Is from this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=12192426&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Pos t12192426) thread

I thought it was worth a read for most people, as I think it conveys position fairly well.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reload before hand starts
PF i like 3betting to 7.50$ or so
your hand is pretty good and this is a good time to raise and win it preflop


fold on the flop you have king high and this is a bad flop for you

[/ QUOTE ]


Why are you advocating 3-betting a marginal holding OOP ?

[/ QUOTE ]

its a good spot for it. Co opened, button cold called, lots of dead money in the pot and we are way ahead of their range

[/ QUOTE ]


Here's my honest to god take on this sorta thing.

Poker hands are defined by our decision to enter the pot, and this occur before the flop.

When a player raises I think it's fair to say they mostly hold pairs, aces, high kings. Clearly KQ is not ahead of an openers range. We are probablly close to even with C/O calling range, because these include pairs, aces, high kings, high queens and suited connectors.

Whilst out decision beings preflop, the hand is defined on the flop. I dont see why you would want to call in a situation where you are likely unsure about the strenght of your hand, and you are first to act meaning that your hand's strength (or lack thereof) is only confounded by the lack of information you will have by playing OOP on every street.

Do you want to play for stacks on a Q72/K94 rainbow board ?

As for raising pf. This is a squeeze play. I love to do these, but my main requirement is that I will have position if I am called, because this will allow to play the hand as well as possible.

For example take a look at this hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=12192433&amp;an=0&amp;page=1#Pos t12192433)

The idea is that I get to squeeze, but when I'm called I can play the hand with what tends to be a marginal holding with position and thus with as much information as possible.

I will conced that players who raise out of the blinds are representing strong hands, but in my expirience If I have position on such an opponent I like to call because they are telling me they have a hand they might want to go broke with and I know exactly what kind of board I am willing to play on.

I just feel that given the simplicity with which most players at this level (non 2+2'ers) think about this game, we do no need to put ourselves into difficult spots pf, when we should be able to wait for better spots.

In short, I dont think there is anything remotely weak about folding KQ, KJ, QJ type of trap hands pf when we are faced with a small raise and are out of position.

I even fold them UTG and UTG+1 now, which you might think is crazy, but I have decided there is little value raising them. The same goes for suited aces, raising these hands is basically raising to steal, and I have to make 3 to 4 players fold in order for my attempt to win the button and 5 - or 6 players to fold in order to steal. When I am called by a non-blind opponent I have a weak holding OOP and I put myself in that position.

Conversley When In late position I open up my requirements MASSIVELY. If there are limpers I LOVE to steal, and I can do this with ATC, because even If I am called I have position.

I dunno if this helps at all.

[Poker Gestalt]

PF - fold or 3 bet
Flop - as played fold
Turn - as played fold
River - as played betting isn't bad. Your line says "Ima fish who called u twice with spades and now i've hit so I'm going to bet"

Try not to play this way anymore though.


EDIT: didn't realize that preflop was such a big discussion. I think that both raising and folding are fine given table dynamics. Calling is bad though. I think there IS a marginal value in raising here at least some % of the time, but by making it standard i think some of that value is lost. In general though folding is a fine play especially if your not well versed in playing OOP, or in these blind vs. LP situations.

[clowntable]

I dunno. We gain according to the FTOP by raising the KQo in my opinion.

First of all there's some nice overlay in the pot due to the fact that this is a squeeze situation.
Second of all, what hands does villain call with here?
I'd say AA/KK/QQ/AK reraise, AQ might fold, pairs below 99 might fold and if not we flip.
So if 88-22+AQ are folded we gain a lot and the hands that crush us usually reraise and we can lay it down.

[panda]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But why fold KQ pre in a 6 max game?? I value that hand like AJ in fr is that not correct?

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not really folding the hand im folding the position


KQ is a fine holding, but its not the nuts, and its tough to play OOP in a multiway raised pot, and I dont even think it's a close decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, your cards matter very little here. I just read your long post too. You need to remember that your cards only matter if and when they get to showdown.

Your position here is actually very strong. Yes, we will be playing a flop oop, but more on that in a second. If cutoff has a decent stealing range then he is folding most of his holdings if you 3-bet here. He is even more likely to fold to a reraise as the button has position on him if all 3 of you see a flop. Likewise, the button has already screamed out to you that he wants to see a flop with his cold call, most buttons are folding most of their range to a 3-bet here also.

We have a hand that is easily folded if 4 bet. If we are called preflop then you can continuation bet most boards profitably.

[DaycareInferno]

you're going to lose a lot of money over the long haul making these sort of plays on micro tables.

[panda]

[ QUOTE ]
you're going to lose a lot of money over the long haul making these sort of plays on micro tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you pick the right opponents and spots. Blanket statements like that are retarded and you certainly won't beat higher than micros without being able to spot profitable situations like this.

[Zen_Approach]

Question for OP: Were you intending to represent the flush if it hit on the river? What was the plan for the river when calling the turn?

Sometimes plays like this look like they happened because the player got him/herself into a difficult position and is trying to buy their way out, which often backfires.

As played it looks pretty nice. If you can find a player that tends to fold the river way too often in this spot, then it can be very profitable, and I think it is also a nice way to protect your drawing hands, so that your opponents can't be 100% sure you've hit your draws.

[Spinners]

[ QUOTE ]
This reply Is from this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=12192426&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Pos t12192426) thread

I thought it was worth a read for most people, as I think it conveys position fairly well.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reload before hand starts
PF i like 3betting to 7.50$ or so
your hand is pretty good and this is a good time to raise and win it preflop


fold on the flop you have king high and this is a bad flop for you

[/ QUOTE ]


Why are you advocating 3-betting a marginal holding OOP ?

[/ QUOTE ]

its a good spot for it. Co opened, button cold called, lots of dead money in the pot and we are way ahead of their range

[/ QUOTE ]


Here's my honest to god take on this sorta thing.

Poker hands are defined by our decision to enter the pot, and this occur before the flop.

When a player raises I think it's fair to say they mostly hold pairs, aces, high kings. Clearly KQ is not ahead of an openers range. We are probablly close to even with C/O calling range, because these include pairs, aces, high kings, high queens and suited connectors.

Whilst out decision beings preflop, the hand is defined on the flop. I dont see why you would want to call in a situation where you are likely unsure about the strenght of your hand, and you are first to act meaning that your hand's strength (or lack thereof) is only confounded by the lack of information you will have by playing OOP on every street.

Do you want to play for stacks on a Q72/K94 rainbow board ?

As for raising pf. This is a squeeze play. I love to do these, but my main requirement is that I will have position if I am called, because this will allow to play the hand as well as possible.

For example take a look at this hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=12192433&amp;an=0&amp;page=1#Pos t12192433)

The idea is that I get to squeeze, but when I'm called I can play the hand with what tends to be a marginal holding with position and thus with as much information as possible.

I will conced that players who raise out of the blinds are representing strong hands, but in my expirience If I have position on such an opponent I like to call because they are telling me they have a hand they might want to go broke with and I know exactly what kind of board I am willing to play on.

I just feel that given the simplicity with which most players at this level (non 2+2'ers) think about this game, we do no need to put ourselves into difficult spots pf, when we should be able to wait for better spots.

In short, I dont think there is anything remotely weak about folding KQ, KJ, QJ type of trap hands pf when we are faced with a small raise and are out of position.

I even fold them UTG and UTG+1 now, which you might think is crazy, but I have decided there is little value raising them. The same goes for suited aces, raising these hands is basically raising to steal, and I have to make 3 to 4 players fold in order for my attempt to win the button and 5 - or 6 players to fold in order to steal. When I am called by a non-blind opponent I have a weak holding OOP and I put myself in that position.

Conversley When In late position I open up my requirements MASSIVELY. If there are limpers I LOVE to steal, and I can do this with ATC, because even If I am called I have position.

I dunno if this helps at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this at all people open raise very loosely from the co to blind steal.

[salesbeast]

To answer your question regarding the "representing the flush"..the answer is YES I thought I had a low board and if that third spade came out had I totally missed I would fire at it and hope he had no piece or small enough to fold. I do plan on moving back above micro as I was playing $1/2 and 3/6 not long ago and a combo of withdrawls (bought stuff for new house) and then a very very bad run which cost me around 15 buy ins @ $1/2 that I moved down and are back to grinding it out. I currently play with around 100 buy ins which makes me very comfortable to play and make moves with as so many play scared at this level and I can pick apart. I am looking to the boards for insight in to game play more and more now because I have some areas I want to improve on and what better area then the players I play with and respect..you guys/gals. I read HoH and Sklansky but find the real time discussions here are far more valuable IMO and thank you all for feedback as I never want t o stop learning this damn game.

[Hail Eris]

This is so gross. Why are you floating this guy OOP? He raised in LP and there's no reason to think he missed this board. If you think his bet is weak, at least C/R the flop.

Raise/fold preflop, fold flop, fold turn, and the river is obviously standard the way you got to it.

Also, this is a really really standard spot for a squeeze preflop. You have one guy opening in LP, another calling with position, and you have a hand that plays well against their suspected ranges, but poorly OOP and 3way.

[Spinners]

The money you save is just as good as the money you make.

[salesbeast]

[ QUOTE ]
The money you save is just as good as the money you make.

[/ QUOTE ]

But not as fun..:)

[Nogatsira]

This is complete spew if you ask me. You might aswell wait for a hand.. There's no need to get frisky at NL50

[Spinners]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The money you save is just as good as the money you make.

[/ QUOTE ]

But not as fun..:)

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao while true it doesn't matter