TPTK + NFD = Problems

[kolotoure]

0 reads on either player

No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

<u>Kolo (SB): $47.25</u>
<u>BB: $41.30</u>
UTG: $68.96
MP: $9.65
<u>CO: $89.45</u>
BTN: $63.56

Preflop: Kolo is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
2 folds, CO calls $0.50, BTN folds, <font color="red">Kolo raises to $2.50</font>, BB calls $2.00, CO calls $2.00

Flop: ($7.50) Ahttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">Kolo bets $5.00</font>, BB calls $5.00, CO calls $5.00

Turn: ($22.50) 4http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (3 Players)
Kolo checks, <font color="red">BB bets $9.50</font>, <font color="red">CO raises all-in to $81.95</font>,

[sightless]

bet more ont he flop
bet turn and call a shove

as played I dont know

[whyzze]

bet more on the flop and lead the turn.


as played fold.

[Harry Fong]

I smell a set

[.xxxx.]

I usually never say this, but fold

your stack is now ~$40
pot is (22.50+9.50+~40 = $72 effective)
72:40 -&gt; 1.8:1
46:9 -&gt; 5.1:1

even if CO 2p'd his 45 you're 3.285:1

your line is good pf and turn, def bet more on flop given draw heavy board and BB's cold call/CO's limping

[kaz2107]

i lead turn here like everytime. but as played i think it is pretty close. i prolly sigh and call since they r avg donks at 50nl

[z28dreams]

Looks fine, fold turn.

Like .xxxx. said, you're not even getting 2:1 here. I seriously doubt top pair is good here, so you only have 9 pretty-clean outs. (Need ~ 4:1 to call).

For those that didn't notice, 76 just hit a straight as well.

Dump!

[z28dreams]

[ QUOTE ]
i lead turn here like everytime. but as played i think it is pretty close. i prolly sigh and call since they r avg donks at 50nl

[/ QUOTE ]

My biggest question here is the turn check... I normally lead, and I'm not sure which is better.

[sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i lead turn here like everytime. but as played i think it is pretty close. i prolly sigh and call since they r avg donks at 50nl

[/ QUOTE ]

My biggest question here is the turn check... I normally lead, and I'm not sure which is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

leading is much much better
we have a monster

[wikemang]

Pot flop, lead turn. Fold on the turn as played.

[ama0330]

It really seems like a lot of the time people will say "lead the turn" even when the pot is completely massive and multiway, like you can just lead here and fold. I think that is just ridic. The first thing I look at is:

how much we have left behind: about $40.

Then, the size of the pot on the turn: $22.50

The size of a reasonable lead here would be $15 - $18, which would leave us with $25 behind with the pot at around $40, before anyone else put any money in. In other words, TOTALLY COMMITTED.

So the question is not whether you want to lead the turn, because lead-folding would be just the most ridiculous thing ever. The question is if you want to stack off or not. If you do, b3bai. If you dont, check fold.

To my mind, we have 9 outs on this turn so its a pretty easy fold for me. We have one pair and are certainly behind, IMO we are never ahead here. If villain has 2pr, which I seriously doubt, we have 14 outs, making us a 2.3:1 dog. We are getting like 1.8:1 here so its a pretty easy fold, but I'm more concerned about the people who want to lead then fold - I assume that if you are leading then you're calling AI, yeah?

That poses another problem, of the hands that he will raise on this turn, what are we ahead of? AQ?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i lead turn here like everytime. but as played i think it is pretty close. i prolly sigh and call since they r avg donks at 50nl

[/ QUOTE ]

My biggest question here is the turn check... I normally lead, and I'm not sure which is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

leading is much much better
we have a monster

[/ QUOTE ]

lol?

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
It really seems like a lot of the time people will say "lead the turn" even when the pot is completely massive and multiway, like you can just lead here and fold. I think that is just ridic. The first thing I look at is:

how much we have left behind: about $40.

Then, the size of the pot on the turn: $22.50

The size of a reasonable lead here would be $15 - $18, which would leave us with $25 behind with the pot at around $40, before anyone else put any money in. In other words, TOTALLY COMMITTED.

So the question is not whether you want to lead the turn, because lead-folding would be just the most ridiculous thing ever. The question is if you want to stack off or not. If you do, b3bai. If you dont, check fold.

To my mind, we have 9 outs on this turn so its a pretty easy fold for me. We have one pair and are certainly behind, IMO we are never ahead here. If villain has 2pr, which I seriously doubt, we have 14 outs, making us a 2.3:1 dog. We are getting like 1.8:1 here so its a pretty easy fold, but I'm more concerned about the people who want to lead then fold - I assume that if you are leading then you're calling AI, yeah?

That poses another problem, of the hands that he will raise on this turn, what are we ahead of? AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definately leading the turn commits us. I will agree with that. The problem here is that leading overvalues our hand, and c/fing undervalues our hand. This is just one of those crappy situations where being OOP screws everything more than usual.

I want to maximize my EV against both of their complete ranges and I feel that my showdown value is high enough right now to put more money in there. Very often one villian will have a FD and the other a weak ace and so on. The few times we get shoved on we have at least 9 outs. maybe a few more.

[maciczka]

lead more on flop. lead turn, and then call a shove coz as said few post before - You will be commited. as played fold.

[.xxxx.]

ama, I thought I was doing this right, but your 2p outs number was different than mine. I went (46/14):(14/14) ---&gt; 3.285:1

[homeslice]

Does anyone CR the flop?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone CR the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered this, I think its a decent line because your equity on the flop is good but drops pretty sharply on the turn.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
It really seems like a lot of the time people will say "lead the turn" even when the pot is completely massive and multiway, like you can just lead here and fold. I think that is just ridic. The first thing I look at is:

how much we have left behind: about $40.

Then, the size of the pot on the turn: $22.50

The size of a reasonable lead here would be $15 - $18, which would leave us with $25 behind with the pot at around $40, before anyone else put any money in. In other words, TOTALLY COMMITTED.

So the question is not whether you want to lead the turn, because lead-folding would be just the most ridiculous thing ever. The question is if you want to stack off or not. If you do, b3bai. If you dont, check fold.

To my mind, we have 9 outs on this turn so its a pretty easy fold for me. We have one pair and are certainly behind, IMO we are never ahead here. If villain has 2pr, which I seriously doubt, we have 14 outs, making us a 2.3:1 dog. We are getting like 1.8:1 here so its a pretty easy fold, but I'm more concerned about the people who want to lead then fold - I assume that if you are leading then you're calling AI, yeah?

That poses another problem, of the hands that he will raise on this turn, what are we ahead of? AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]im willing to commit on the turn. but image would b [censored] at the table thus villians range would b much wider. against to random unknowns i am willing to get it in on this turn

[sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
like you can just lead here and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

who said anything about folding? our hand is a monster up to this turn. we are like in very good shape vs 2 villains ranges.

[ QUOTE ]
The size of a reasonable lead here would be $15 - $18...In other words, TOTALLY COMMITTED.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

[ QUOTE ]
because lead-folding would be just the most ridiculous thing ever

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah


[ QUOTE ]
If you do, b3bai. If you dont, check fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. In this spot it seems that betting out and getting is all in is good


[ QUOTE ]
lol?


[/ QUOTE ]

you dont think our hand is in great shape on this turn?

edit : also raise .50 more preflop

[Logun]

PF good
Flop - I like to lead here a bit more.

Turn - I'm pretty aggr. so I will lead here to get paid by AJ, AQ, AT...etc and other possible FD's

I understand that leading the turn commits us but judging from action you might get 3-way AI with the NFD and that's not bad.

[calimero]

[ QUOTE ]
It really seems like a lot of the time people will say "lead the turn" even when the pot is completely massive and multiway, like you can just lead here and fold. I think that is just ridic. The first thing I look at is:

how much we have left behind: about $40.

Then, the size of the pot on the turn: $22.50

The size of a reasonable lead here would be $15 - $18, which would leave us with $25 behind with the pot at around $40, before anyone else put any money in. In other words, TOTALLY COMMITTED.

So the question is not whether you want to lead the turn, because lead-folding would be just the most ridiculous thing ever. The question is if you want to stack off or not. If you do, b3bai. If you dont, check fold.

To my mind, we have 9 outs on this turn so its a pretty easy fold for me. We have one pair and are certainly behind, IMO we are never ahead here. If villain has 2pr, which I seriously doubt, we have 14 outs, making us a 2.3:1 dog. We are getting like 1.8:1 here so its a pretty easy fold, but I'm more concerned about the people who want to lead then fold - I assume that if you are leading then you're calling AI, yeah?

That poses another problem, of the hands that he will raise on this turn, what are we ahead of? AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

great statement