I Shoulda Moved In

[Rookcifer]

This is my first hand to post here as I am a new player. Yes, I expect to be berated for such shoddy play, but that's why I'm here. Tell me what you would do, then I will explain my thought process.

My thought was that since I was reraised pre-flop and then there was a lot of raising and calling going on at the turn that I was beat. The player who reaised me was a maniac so I wasn't overly concerned, but when MP2 went all in on turn it was hard for me to put him on anything but a set of 10's.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($4.70)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 ($15.88)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP2 ($3.11)</font>
MP3 ($2.22)
CO ($5.02)
Button ($5.10)
SB ($2.64)
BB ($2.98)
UTG ($9.74)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.02, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.08</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $0.14</font>, MP2 calls $0.14, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $0.14, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $0.06.

Flop: ($0.61) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $0.02</font>, MP2 calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02.

Turn: ($0.69) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.22</font>, MP1 calls $0.22, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $0.44</font>, Button folds, Hero calls $0.22, MP1 calls $0.22.

River: ($2.01) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $2.88</font>, MP2 calls $2.51 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $7.03

[bored]

I fold pf the first time.

Check-raise the flop minbet.

Bet near pot on the turn.

River is probably a fold after terribly misplaying the other streets.

Ooops; it is full ring. Definately fold preflop.

[Jamougha]

Turn bet is way too small.

[mookboi]

Preflop is fine until he 3bets. It's a min 3bet, but we have a [censored] kicker. So even if you hit your ace, you are often behind. If you don't hit your act, well, our hand sucks. So I fold. The above reasoning is why I fold, because as far as pure pot odds go, this is a call.

On flop, I lead. If he raises, I'm out. If we check-raise, we are once again put in a situation where we aren't sure whether we are ahead of him or not. If he has AQ or something, he will call. It's 2NL, he'll probably call with like A3 here. And we have no idea whether we are ahead or behind on turn, and are OOP again. So I lead flop and fold to a raise.

As played, you hit your kicker on turn. This is good. The only hands you are really behind now are AJ, AA and JJ. Like I said, 2NL, so I'm sure villain just doesn't know how to adjust the little bar often enough where he'll play the way he's been playing with AA, but if that is the case, we are going broke. I'm pushing hard on this turn. First of all, initial bet would be like 50-60 cents at least. You can make a case for CRing this turn, but there's 3 other people in pot, and MP1 might slow down and it'll get checked behind. So I donk, and 3bet all in.

River is a call. We are ahead of a lot. I might even raise this river.

[takingcontrol]

this hand would get better responses in the full ring forum.
some general observations about the hand :

preflop, you open utg+1 with ATs, which is usually a bad idea, since the odds are that dominating hands can call or raise you with position. you get reraised and two callers which isnt a terrible result since you can play a powerful hand multiway for it's flush and two pair potential, but not much else.

flop - I dont mind check/calling since we got so many callers, odds are we're dominated but since mp1 bet so small and was called twice I reraise to 2/3pot hoping to take it down but also to provide unprofitable drawing odds to anyone with 45 and KQ who both have gutshots. And of course for value from weaker holdings.

turn - we just made what's probably the best hand so lead out for 2/3 the pot or more if you think they'll call it. when we get re-raised here.. shove. at this level people can re-raise here with just about anything.

since the river is a total blank, the only reason we're checking is to let the other guys put their money in the pot.
all that's ahead of us here is 45, AJ, 22, 33, jj, and the unlikely AA.

I understand that in this hand you're all quite deep, but I can't really see any of your opponents adjusting to that factor and protecting their stacks properly. From my extremely limited observations about poker over the last year I think it's safe to say - You're trying to sell your hand to players with weaker holdings. Your average 0.02NL player will call almost any bet there with any ace, dont be afraid to get it in against loose players if you think you have the best hand.

[Rookcifer]

My thinking was:

A-10s is a decent hand, not great, but decent. Even though I was in EP, I decided to make it 4xBB and see what happened behind me. If I would have been reraised more than what I was and if there had been no callers, it is an auto-fold. I did get reraised and there were 4 players seeing flop, so I figured pot odds were good enough to call and see a flop.

Flop:

The A came, and this puts me in a tough position because I am playing the lowest stakes and most people do not understand starting hand value and will usually call EP pre-flop raises with J-10, KJo, and A-rags etc.. I figured I was good unless someone had A-J or higher. However, being so badly out of position, I decided to check and see the action behind me. Well, the large stack (who was a total maniac, he had played like 90% of his hands since I sat down) made a pathetic .02 raise and I knew it was just an attempt to "see where he was at." Everyone called, and it came back to me and I called. Looking back, I should have raised the size of the pot.

(Question: When you are first to act on flop and you have a pair of aces with a marginal kicker, what is the general line? Check or bet?)

Turn:

I had two pair, so I figured that I was about 90% to have the best hand. I bet 1/3 of the pot (which was too small, it probably should have been the size of the pot or an all-in). Well, big stacked maniac calls of course, and the guy behind him doubles my raise. It was hard for me to put him on any specific hand because he did not bet it on the flop, so I figured he probably did not have an ace. At this point, based on his passive play, I thought he at least had two pair, and due to his pre-flop reraise, I thought there was a good chance he just made a set of 10's.

River:

I didn't lead out and bet because of villain's previous raise on the turn. The guy goes all-in, so I figured he must have a huge hand, probably the set of 10's. Then, in the back of my mind, I had the maniac to worry about. What did he have? It was possible he had us both beat.

Perhaps it was my fault for not betting more and being more aggressive on the flop, but as the results show, the turn nor river helped him at all. I would have won the pot if I stayed in. I had him dominated pre-flop.

This is a problem I have playing against these players who play any two cards and who think A-x is a monster. You just never know if they have hit their A-4 on the flop or their AK.

P.S. Is this forum only for 6-max players?

[mookboi]

Your response kind of tells me that your thinking about this is kind of fuzzy. At least your approach seems fuzzy. As I explained before, while pot odds dictate a call, what happens when you flop an ace (like you did)? You have no idea how your hand measures up, you could be easily dominated. If anything, since you are suited, the flush value might make this a call.

There is no general line, but if you think you are ahead and are playing against a bunch of donks, betting is obviously the better line. You want to put your money in while you are ahead. As much as possible. If you are pretty confident you are ahead, put in as much money as you think they will call. There is no way you can be pretty confident you are ahead with AT on that flop against four people, so I would stab for about 3/4th pot and see if I get raised. If I get raised, I'm basically getting the "I have you beat" message, and fold.

On turn, how did you come up with the 90% figure? If you are that confident you were ahead, putting in money is what you want to do. "Going all in" here is retarded. We aren't playing a tournament. Bet about 3/4th-full size of pot. 1/3rd of pot is weak because it gives hands like straight draws the proper odds to continue. Why did you figure he probably didn't have an ace? What two pair did you put him on that doesn't have an ace, that you don't beat? A set is a good hand to worry about, however since he is a "maniac" this is a very easy 3bet.

I don't see how you can fold this river. It basically helped no hands, unless he was holding 54 this whole time. You are behind only a set and AJ, and since villain is a maniac his range is huge. He could have any ace, lots of pocket pair hands, a weaker two pair (JT or something). The more I think about it, the more I shove this river, or at least call. Folding here is bad. If you are gonna fold in this spot, might as well fold on the turn, which would have been out of the question since we just made 2 pair and our hand kicks ass.

[barabe]

I would say re-raise turn, and shove river.

[Rookcifer]

[ QUOTE ]
On turn, how did you come up with the 90% figure? If you are that confident you were ahead, putting in money is what you want to do. "Going all in" here is retarded. We aren't playing a tournament. Bet about 3/4th-full size of pot. 1/3rd of pot is weak because it gives hands like straight draws the proper odds to continue. Why did you figure he probably didn't have an ace? What two pair did you put him on that doesn't have an ace, that you don't beat? A set is a good hand to worry about, however since he is a "maniac" this is a very easy 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I thought I was ahead because I had top 2 pair and I had not yet seen villain act as I was first. When I was raised, I figured villain had just hit a set of 10's because he had been so passive on the flop. This took me from being 90% sure I was ahead to being very unsure. Normally people at these stakes are not tricky and don't do a whole lot of slow playing, which is why I thought the 10 helped him. (BTW, villain was not the maniac. In fact this was his first hand played as he had just sat down at the table. Maniac was the guy with the big stack who played 90% of his hands).

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how you can fold this river. It basically helped no hands, unless he was holding 54 this whole time. You are behind only a set and AJ, and since villain is a maniac his range is huge. He could have any ace, lots of pocket pair hands, a weaker two pair (JT or something). The more I think about it, the more I shove this river, or at least call. Folding here is bad. If you are gonna fold in this spot, might as well fold on the turn, which would have been out of the question since we just made 2 pair and our hand kicks ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had been running bad most of the morning (though I have regained it all and then some tonight) and was a bit afraid of losing any more. That and his bet on turn was what did it. I have had so much bad luck with 2-pair hands, in fact I am in the red with them overall I believe.

[maciczka]

pf is fine at that stakes
flop - i lead.
turn - i lead
river - i check/call [flush?]

it was played horrrrrrrrrrrrribly so fold on river is fine