Can i get some insight 10nl

[margrades]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/convert.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

CO ($4.14)
Button ($10.77)
SB ($3.65)
Hero ($8.79)
UTG ($5.56)
MP ($13.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.05, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.75</font>, CO folds, Button calls $0.70, SB folds, Hero calls $0.35.

Flop: ($2.35) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $4.81</font>, Button folds, Hero calls $4.51.

Turn: ($11.97) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: ($11.97) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $11.97

[cb4mvp]

Preflop just check. You're clearly getting 3 or 4 calls and your hand is only good if you flop a set, so don't throw money away like that. Check the flop and fold to a bet, you basically have a gutshot here.

this is full ring, yes?

Edit: lol I didn't actually look at how many people were at this table, I just saaw that there were like 4 callers and assumed..... I am an idiot, plz ban me for a day, lol

[n0ctu2ne]

Your flop lead out was disastrous, and even more disastrous was the call. I would fold the flop. In this case you were looking to flop something big, and the draw that you flopped is not powerful. If you plan on taking the flop by leading out, throw out a bet like you mean it.

[Harry Fong]

This is sickening!

You are OOP with a small pair. Why raise? All you need is one caller and you are [censored] on the flop.


pathetic flop bet and call the reraise all in

[Keitan]

Wow relax ppl, all trying to learn here.

I actually have no problem with the preflop raise, and calling UTG limp/minraise is fine esp since button called. So you're in a multiway reraised pot and UTG has initiative. So if you hit the flop great, if you don't give up. The flop is pretty good for your hand, and I would lead here for 1.8 or so - this is a good size imo because it gives you odds to call a shove from UTG, and allows you to fold if UTG folds but button shoves.

But, if both UTG and Button shove then I think you're in a tough spot with the flush draw on board - folding or calling can be correct here imo.

As played you really don't have the odds to call UTG's shove because you didn't price yourself in with your flop bet.

[Rounder101]

I dont like raising PF w 5s on the BB, Im better just checking it in a multiway pot, and hope to catch your set.
As played, your flop bet is awfully weak, but I probably just check it, it seems to be a good flop for u but it really isnt. Not really sure what buttons minraise meant PF, but I just c/f this flop. With 5s in a multiway pot you want to flop your set, if not give it up. You have an open ended straight draw, but to the idiot straight, therefore we could be drawing dead to a straight (obv with a runner runner boat we win), so I wouldnt lead it.
Awful call of his bet, just go with the odds, and theyre not even close in this one.

[Nemesis69]

Wow pf is not good. Just check and try to flop a set.

The flop bet is gross. Just check and see what happens.
From now on it depends on reads. Did you only see villian minraise pf with good hands? If this is the case you do not have much equity I think. So a fold on the flop is best.

[Gospy]

Please explain to me why he shouldn't be raising pf. If I get 5's in the BB and 3 limp in front as long as they have full stacks I'm raising every time. I want to build a pot to hit my set and trap dead money or narrow the field so I can cbet comfortably. Flop is easy c/f, but I mean I raise that pf every time.

[Yort Mada]

margrades,

i'm very new to NL but from what i've learned:

You dont raise anything but very good cards from the blinds in this situation. its because a hand like 55, is terrible aganst a field of this many people. the only time it will be good is when you flop a set. Also, you are out of position, this is very, very important. Position means everything.

the button is the most profitable pos of all, the closer you are to it, the more you raise.

so after you've raised and are first to act, i think a bet is fine, but you want to bet 1/2 2/3 of the pot size. .30c is very low and shows lots of weakness, + you are giving your hand close to zero value.

and the call is bad, its a fold =(.

here is a lot of material to help improve your game.

http://www.pr0crast.com/2+2.NL.Anthology.v1.htm

i hope i havnt mislead you, hope this helps.

[Yort Mada]

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain to me why he shouldn't be raising pf. If I get 5's in the BB and 3 limp in front as long as they have full stacks I'm raising every time. I want to build a pot to hit my set and trap dead money or narrow the field so I can cbet comfortably. Flop is easy c/f, but I mean I raise that pf every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

because you are an underdog. you are hoping to hit your monster. you shouldnt raise when you are behind. you are also in the 2nd worst pos IF you hit your monster.

you dont want to get in big pots oop anyway.

[Keitan]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is easy c/f

[/ QUOTE ]

Who else thinks leading this flop is bad? I think it's fine - just as good, maybe even better than a check, though slightly higher variance play. Hero has a chance to take down the pot on the flop. If he gets action he has outs and can call if he's getting the odds and fold if he's not.

[Gospy]

Yea, by raising you thin the field, increase your equity and trap dead money. Are you saying you wouldn't raise TT here? I realize you are OOP but the only goal with a hand like 55 is to hit a set. People are far more likely to go broke in a raised pot then an unraised pot. I generally raise every unopened pot with pps from any position. I am not advocating playing a big pot, I'm just advocating building a pot to hit your set. Flop is an easy c/f, I concede that.

Ok, better question, do you call a raise here of 4x BB with 55?

[Gospy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop is easy c/f

[/ QUOTE ]

Who else thinks leading this flop is bad? I think it's fine - just as good, maybe even better than a check, though slightly higher variance play. Hero has a chance to take down the pot on the flop. If he gets action he has outs and can call if he's getting the odds and fold if he's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally am playing 55 to hit a set, if an 9 comes, you're in bad shape. If a 5 comes, you're not in great shape either. It becomes a question of how many clean outs do you have, and can you get 4 others to fold.

[kroeliewoelie]

In think you cannot say in general whether the preflop raise is bad. In my opinion there are a few reasons to raise:

1) You eliminate opponents and may be able to take down the pot with a cbet.
2) You build a pot in case you hit your set. If you have already made a lot of cbets, then cbetting when you hit is not suspicious. You also do not want streets checked when you flop your monster, because this changes the size of the pot by an order of magnitude!
3) If your opponents are calling station preflop and weak tight post flop, you can take the pot a large amount of the time without hitting. And because of your raise, you take down a larger pot.

There are also reasons not to raise:
1) If your opponents are calling stations that will call with any piece of the board regardless of the texture of the board, then you will probably be able to get in when you hit anyway by overbetting somewhat, so you do not need to put money in the pot when still drawing.
2) If you have a lot of limp-reraise types at your table then checking is fine.

Anyway, the flop in this hand is extremely bad for your hand. You have flopped an idiot end OESD where you use only one hole card. It is unlikely that this is the best straight draw out. There is also a flusdraw out there. And fives will give other people straights, so hitting a set isn't gonna help you either. So you would need a runner runner full house to win. But in this case somebody will probably throw a large bet in on the turn and then you do not get the odds to call anyway. Combining all this makes this a clear c/f IMO.

[Keitan]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, the flop in this hand is extremely bad for your hand. You have flopped an idiot end OESD where you use only one hole card. It is unlikely that this is the best straight draw out. There is also a flusdraw out there. And fives will give other people straights, so hitting a set isn't gonna help you either.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG limp/raised preflop I think it's unlikely he hit a straight draw on this board. Maybe Button did, but he has a very wide range with his limp/call PF so I'm not crazy scared about him having a higher OESD.

But you're right about the flush draw. So combined the possibility of a higher straight draw and FD, and stack sizes makes me not want to play a pot here with the Button.

But I am willing to gamble that our draw is clean against UTG's shoving range (assuming we lead the flop). I think there's also a fair chance UTG shoves some weird hand we have already beat given his stack.

So if Hero leads the flop, no matter how UTG responds, if Button calls or raises we are done with the hand unless we manage to hit the turn/river. But, if UTG gets involved, and Button folds, I don't mind getting all-in with him.

Obviously it would be ideal if both villains fold to Hero's lead which makes up most of the profitability of the lead.

I don't think anyone has agreed with me that leading the flop is good here - could def be wrong iuno.

[Yort Mada]

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, by raising you thin the field, increase your equity and trap dead money. Are you saying you wouldn't raise TT here? I realize you are OOP but the only goal with a hand like 55 is to hit a set. People are far more likely to go broke in a raised pot then an unraised pot. I generally raise every unopened pot with pps from any position. I am not advocating playing a big pot, I'm just advocating building a pot to hit your set. Flop is an easy c/f, I concede that.

Ok, better question, do you call a raise here of 4x BB with 55?

[/ QUOTE ]

TT is a way different than 55, and no, i wouldnt call unless everyone came with the raiser.

[Waingro]

I like a raise pf, both in general and in this spot particulary since both op and button is quite deep. And everyone has full stacks. It can be difficult to get 180 bb in in a limped pot. Lots of additional good things can happen if we raise, like everybody folds pf, we get it hu and can take it down on the flop with a cb.

On the flop we obv has odds to get it in vs UTGs range. I like a check and see what happens, if UTG bets and button folds I crai. If there is a bet and a raise we instamuck. I don´t like a lead.

[Nemesis69]

We are out of position (!) and if we not hit our set we will face a difficult situation. We're almost flipping coins with ATC.

[DaycareInferno]

i don't think pf is really a big deal either way. its kind of dumb to debate something like that so much when postflop is such a trainwreck.

[BoerfSt]

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain to me why he shouldn't be raising pf. If I get 5's in the BB and 3 limp in front as long as they have full stacks I'm raising every time. I want to build a pot to hit my set and trap dead money or narrow the field so I can cbet comfortably. Flop is easy c/f, but I mean I raise that pf every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do the same. If you know how to play the flop in these kind of pots I think this is a good play.But playing the flop if there are some callers is pretty hard..

[monkover]

raise preflop is fine for the reasons jim listed...
i don´t like a c/rai though b/c we don´t have any fold equity imo. so i just c/f the flop.

[Perk76]

55=1010 when raising out of the blinds if the whole table is going to call anyways.

At NL10 I think checking and seeing the flop is best preflop since any raise will get called by anyone that limped previously.

As you move up less people will be calling your raises from the blinds, and it makes sense to raise the pots up since you can win the hand in a variety of ways. At NL10 it basically takes a hand to win in this spot, so raising preflop is just gross IMO.

As far as how you played it, if your gonna lead the flop lead it as if you had an actual hand. 1/2 - 2/3 pot would look normal if you had AA/KK for example. You have 6 outs to be on the bottom end of a straight which is not good, so I prefer check/calling small bet on flop only and shutting down. A hand like this you will not get any flush draws, straight draws and mid-over pairs that limped out, so its probably best to check fold.

[0524432]

The PF raise with a small pp is fine, building a pot worth taking down when you flop a set is never a bad play. In this case, the UTG open limper decides to limp-raise.

This hand is now about stack sizes.

We just barely have enough of a stack to call this size 3 bet PF, but the UTG limp/raise villain does NOT have nearly enough worth set mining for his stack.

In this specific case, "WAIT!", realize the situation, and fold pre-flop (after you've opened from the bb obv).
If villain HAD a full stack, call PF for set value and muck otherwise. Yes, including and OESD, there's no need to get stacks in with that little equity, only heeee hawwwws get sucked in by the OESD in this situation, save your $ for the flops that hit your set.

[cb4mvp]

Raising pre is not the most atrocious play, but the problem with it (especially knowing you're getting at least 3 callers) is that on every flop that does not contain a 5, you must check fold. I understand that you're trying to build a pot, but you're not going to thin the field at all and quite honestly most of the time I don't even want a set vs 3+ players.

Now, as for the flop, what was the point of leading .30? In a pot that size, that's basically a check. Multiway on this board, leading (if you can call it that) is just ridiculous, imo.

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising pre is not the most atrocious play, but the problem with it (especially knowing you're getting at least 3 callers) is that on every flop that does not contain a 5, you must check fold. I understand that you're trying to build a pot, but you're not going to thin the field at all and quite honestly most of the time I don't even want a set vs 3+ players.

Now, as for the flop, what was the point of leading .30? In a pot that size, that's basically a check. Multiway on this board, leading (if you can call it that) is just ridiculous, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

"quite honestly most of the time I don't even want a set vs 3+ players."

!?!?!?!?!?!

After re reading this, !?!?!?!?!?! isn't enough, this needs to be seriously addressed. Would you mind if I used your comment as the start of a new thread?

[Spurious]

I'd love to have a set against 100people. sets are the nuts on the flop...

Raising preflop is fine, jim said why, above.

The small donk on the flop was a retarded move, bet out half the pot and fold to a reraise, if you want to bet out.
UTG has QQ+,AK, or maybe even KK/AA only.
Just check the flop and try to hit your draw.
And the flop call was spew, you got an OESD (not like someone said a gutshot or the idiot end of a straight, both outs are good because of UTG's range) try to draw cheaply.

[RedSoxFan]

Very good debate here.

I usually check PF but can see the argument to raise and build pot so can get paid off when hit set.

0524432- what do you mean by having a full stack- just more than hero? Why is this important- if hero hits set, he'll still get a decent stack from villain.

Post flop is ugly- as most people have covered adequately.

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
Very good debate here.

I usually check PF but can see the argument to raise and build pot so can get paid off when hit set.

0524432- what do you mean by having a full stack- just more than hero? Why is this important- if hero hits set, he'll still get a decent stack from villain.

Post flop is ugly- as most people have covered adequately.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a simple example of implied odds. You're going to flop a set 12.5% of the time (1 in 8). Therefor, the villain needs to have AT LEAST 8 times the size of the bet to see the flop (wether you initiated half or all of the raise) in order for the call to be +eV. In this case, after the .75 cost to see the flop, villain has only 6.4333 times the raise left behind. Not only is this not even 8, 8 is a base #, if you think you can stack the villain if you flop a set (which in the case of limp/raise utg your chances are very good), the more $ they have behind, the better!

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising pre is not the most atrocious play, but the problem with it (especially knowing you're getting at least 3 callers) is that on every flop that does not contain a 5, you must check fold. I understand that you're trying to build a pot, but you're not going to thin the field at all and quite honestly most of the time I don't even want a set vs 3+ players.

Now, as for the flop, what was the point of leading .30? In a pot that size, that's basically a check. Multiway on this board, leading (if you can call it that) is just ridiculous, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

"quite honestly most of the time I don't even want a set vs 3+ players."

!?!?!?!?!?!

After re reading this, !?!?!?!?!?! isn't enough, this needs to be seriously addressed. Would you mind if I used your comment as the start of a new thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Kingz22]

I agree with gospy and lucky jim. Try to get AK or AQ to give it up (because you all know that AA and KK can't help themselves no matter what shows up on that board).

UTG could have anything, and that underpair just isn't worth it. Look for more opportune moments (and there will always be some at nano and microlimits) and don't piss your money away. Just my 2 cents.

[Kingz22]

Oh - and ALWAYS keep 0524432's words in mind when you head into a flop with a pocket pair.

[Spurious]

nevermind, misunderstood something.

[HighOctane]

Preflop is fine. You are increasing the stakes so if yo hit you are more likely to play for stacks. In the BB I think it is especially OK since you will be folding most flops anyway. Flop bet is not good. You have the bottom end. But if you are going to bet in the hopes that they will fold, make it at least a credible bet. No one is going away getting almost 9:1 and you are likely getting raised again (which you did - so it is time to give up).

[Smilin']

[ QUOTE ]
It's a simple example of implied odds. You're going to flop a set 12.5% of the time (1 in 8). Therefor, the villain needs to have AT LEAST 8 times the size of the bet to see the flop (wether you initiated half or all of the raise) in order for the call to be +eV. In this case, after the .75 cost to see the flop, villain has only 6.4333 times the raise left behind. Not only is this not even 8, 8 is a base #, if you think you can stack the villain if you flop a set (which in the case of limp/raise utg your chances are very good), the more $ they have behind, the better!

[/ QUOTE ]

At the point where UTG reraises, it costs only 35 cents to see the flop, not 75 cents. If UTG has AA or KK almost always after limp-reraising (and is very likely to stack off with it), then calling the limp-reraise for set value seems reasonable--especially since I hate the image of raising only to fold to a min-reraise.

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a simple example of implied odds. You're going to flop a set 12.5% of the time (1 in 8). Therefor, the villain needs to have AT LEAST 8 times the size of the bet to see the flop (wether you initiated half or all of the raise) in order for the call to be +eV. In this case, after the .75 cost to see the flop, villain has only 6.4333 times the raise left behind. Not only is this not even 8, 8 is a base #, if you think you can stack the villain if you flop a set (which in the case of limp/raise utg your chances are very good), the more $ they have behind, the better!

[/ QUOTE ]

At the point where UTG reraises, it costs only 35 cents to see the flop, not 75 cents. If UTG has AA or KK almost always after limp-reraising (and is very likely to stack off with it), then calling the limp-reraise for set value seems reasonable--especially since I hate the image of raising only to fold to a min-reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

glad you posted this comment. yes, the utg limper has only charged you an additional .35 to see the flop, but its the TOTAL % of the stacks that it costs to SEE the flop that matters. You initiated the first raise, and he made it more $ to see the flop, those 2 things are regardless. It's costing you .75 to flop your set. The player most likely to give you his stack, is the UTG limp/rasier. In this case, he DOES NOT have enough $ behind to even warrant calling the min raise pre. Don't get me wrong, poker is a "heat of the battle" game where it's often easier to make the best possible play here in forum than in practice. I might very well call PF like our Hero did, BUT, it's just simply -eV. You're not going to flop a set enough times to make it worth winning his stack.

As for the image of opening bb, and folding to an utg 3b. Yes, you won't see it often, but if you think about it from a 3rd person view, it's not too unreasonable. The UTG limp/raise MUCH more often than not is one of a very few premium hands which almost every hand flops horrible against. Image you can control, you can't control this UTG players' line and his stack size.

[Caelallaiach]

Smilin' is right, when the action comes back round to Hero, the pot is $2 and he has $0.35 to call, so he is getting laid close to 6 to 1 pots odds. In addition to this, UTG has $4.81 left in his stack.

So if we assume that if Hero always wins the pot if he hits his set (which Hero will a very high % of the time) then we can say:-
Minimum Hero will win: $2
Maximum Hero could win if he stacks UTG: $2 + $4.81 = $6.81

So Hero is calling $0.35 to potentially win $6.81, about 5% of what he could win in total, but remember $2 of that is already in the pot, so it is definitely a call at this point IMO.

[0524432]

I don't understand what's confusing here. If you consistantly make this call to set mine against a short stack (under 8x the PF cost in this case) you will NOT make enough $ to make this call profitable.

[Caelallaiach]

[ QUOTE ]
The UTG limp/raise MUCH more often than not is one of a very few premium hands which almost every hand flops horrible against.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this statement, in my experience an UTG limp reraise in 10NL, is very often a weak player with a big pocket pair, who knows that it is a great preflop hand, wants to get more money in the pot but doesn't want to scare people away.

In this spot I would actually be hoping they have AA or KK because they are giving you great odds to call and you can just fold if you miss and stack them most of the time when you hit, which is definitely +EV.

[Caelallaiach]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what's confusing here. If you consistantly make this call to set mine against a short stack (under 8x the PF cost in this case) you will NOT make enough $ to make this call profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to make your decision based on the current situation. When the action gets back to Hero, he can either fold or call for $0.35 more. Hero doesn't have the option of withdrawing his raise to $0.40, that money now belongs to the pot.

As the hand overall goes then you are right, you do not ideally want to get this much of your stack in against a big pocket pair, but you have to re-evaluate the pot odds and implied odds as each decision comes.

The point is this - if Hero calls for $0.35 more, he will make 20 times this stake often enough in this situation to make specifically the call of $0.35 a +EV decision.

[0524432]

[ QUOTE ]
In this spot I would actually be hoping they have AA or KK because they are giving you great odds to call and you can just fold if you miss and stack them most of the time when you hit, which is definitely +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

DING DING DING!!!!!!!

[Perk76]

One thing to consider and it has been stated in other threads. The reality of odds needed to play a hand for set odds is around 11-1 due to the chances of set over set.

[0524432]

good point

[Keitan]

You are definitely getting the odds to call the extra $.35 even if just to set mine.. Remember Button called preflop too, so you have to include the % of time you will win from both villains or even just Button.. If you were up against just UTG then it's a fold.

0522432, maybe i missed it (i just skimmed your posts), but it seems your only concerned about UTG regarding the preflop call.

[Caelallaiach]

Okay, I just did some quick calculations under the assumptions:-

1) We hold a small pocket pair like 55.
2) Our opponent holds AA.
3) We check/fold if we miss.
4) We get all our chips in if we flop a set and get called everytime by the AA.

Then we need to win 10.6 times what we called preflop off our opponent, so close to your number of 11 to 1. I included set over set on the flop and the 8% suckout rate for the AA hitting an A on the turn or river.

Of course, our opponent will have AK and miss some of the time or QQ and the flop will come AK5 and in those cases we will not be able to stack our opponents. This, I assume is the basis of the 5-10 rule, if we are putting in 5% of what we might win in total if we can stack someone then it is a reasonable call. This assumes we can stack the raiser about 50% of the time, a reasonable assumption at micro stakes.

[Caelallaiach]

[ QUOTE ]
You are definitely getting the odds to call the extra $.35 even if just to set mine.. Remember Button called preflop too, so you have to include the % of time you will win from both villains or even just Button.. If you were up against just UTG then it's a fold.

0522432, maybe i missed it (i just skimmed your posts), but it seems your only concerned about UTG regarding the preflop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without Button's call, there would be $1.25 in the pot, $0.35 to call, so the pot lays about 3.5 to 1, and another $4.81 left in UTG's stack.

Max we can win: $4.81 + $1.25 = $6.06
Min we win = $1.25

We would be calling $0.35 to potentially win $6.06, so about 6% of what we win if we stack Villain. Personally, I would still call this, I think we can stack Villain more often than normal given the min-re-raise tell.

We need to win about (11x$0.35=$3.85) on average using the 11 to 1 quoted above. There is $1.25 already in the pot so we need to get $2.60 on average from Villain.

That means stacking him about 54% of the time we hit our set ($2.60/$4.81x100%), seems a reasonable assumption? So call the min-raise with or without Button calling, although having the Button in as well is obviously preferable, since it adds to the preflop pot and also is an extra stack to win money off.

Seriously, I really, really, love it when weak players play their big Pocket Pairs this badly preflop, but they do need to have enough for us to win in their stack.

[0524432]

"Seriously, I really, really, love it when weak players play their big Pocket Pairs this badly preflop, but they do need to have enough for us to win in their stack. "

lol, likewise. However I disagree about even calling the .35 to stack a shortie

[Keitan]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, likewise. However I disagree about even calling the .35 to stack a shortie

[/ QUOTE ]

Please could you confirm that you are aware Button is also in this hand and called the extra .35 before Hero.

[Caelallaiach]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, likewise. However I disagree about even calling the .35 to stack a shortie

[/ QUOTE ]

How come? He's not that short (as an aside, BB is $0.05, not $0.10, so not 10NL as most of us know it). Do you agree with my figure of needing to stack him 54% of the time when we hit our set? I really reckon we can do that, I am convinced this is a weak player with a monster, because of the UTG min-reraise and I don't see him getting away from it unless it is AK that doesn't hit or KK, QQ facing overcards, but on balance I think we stack him often enough to call here even without Button calling the extra $0.70.

[Keitan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol, likewise. However I disagree about even calling the .35 to stack a shortie

[/ QUOTE ]

How come? He's not that short (as an aside, BB is $0.05, not $0.10, so not 10NL as most of us know it). Do you agree with my figure of needing to stack him 54% of the time when we hit our set? I really reckon we can do that, I am convinced this is a weak player with a monster, because of the UTG min-reraise and I don't see him getting away from it unless it is AK that doesn't hit or KK, QQ facing overcards, but on balance I think we stack him often enough to call here even without Button calling the extra $0.70.

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Against UTG alone I'm folding - risk/reward just isn't there. Even if you are guaranteed to stack him every time you hit your set it's not worth it. General rule is effective stack should be 10x the what you put in PF. This is assuming you are playing just for set value. If you estimate you have some steal equity it could obviously be less than 10x.

[Caelallaiach]

If UTG raised it up to $0.75 in his first action and it folded round to Hero in the BB, I 100% agree with what you say, we would have to call $0.75 to win $4.81 and that would not be profitable.

But that isn't the situation here, with Hero raising and UTG min-reraising, we have to call $0.35 to win $6.06. Like I said before, the $0.40 Hero raised to previously now belongs to the pot, we can't withdraw that money. We now have to make a decision based on the pot odds we are being laid at this current time.

So, if you agree with the numbers I worked out above which I think are correct, the debate becomes, can we stack UTG 54% of the time when we hit our set. I would argue yes because:-

1) I think the min-reraise is a pretty reliable tell that he has a strong hand from my experience playing micro no limit.
2) Without wanting to be too rude, HE IS A DONKEY!!! What hand would you limp UTG with and then min reraise, I can't think of one hand with which a good player would do that.
3) I might as well now mention that Button is also a donkey too. What hand do you limp with after two callers and then call again after a raise and a min-reraise? Answer: Nothing, if you a good player, he probably has suited connectors, a small pocket pair and does not have anywhere near the implied odds he needs, or QJo, or AA (hopefully), or A5s, who knows? Either way, I feel that a "HEEEEE-HAWWWW!!!" is appropriate here.

For entertainment value, given that 2) is true, let me recall a couple of the kind of extra money making possiblities that I see at micro stakes:-
/images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG has A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif, flop J52, we pot it, does UTG fold? He obviously should, but does he, does he?
/images/graemlins/spade.gif Even better is when UTG has KK, flop comes Q72, in an attempt to be tricky UTG bets $0.05, yes that's right, you get laid 25 to 1 odds and can call to hit your 2 outer, I have stacked people this way before, and got abused for being lucky in the chat box, LOL!

So, my point is, we need to call this $0.35, with or without the Button, I really do think we can stack UTG more than 54% of the time.

IMO, the real question in this hand is should Hero raise to $0.40 in the first place, I am not sure. This is actually one of the few times I have experimented with min raising in the past; when I have a small Pocket Pair in the blinds, simply because everyone calls and it makes the pot twice as big. Obviously attentive players would realise what it is, but this is micro stakes and no one pays attention much.