Most Boring Question Ever?

[Subzero_Wins]

If a 18/16 opens in the button, what do I do with KQo in the SB or BB?

What if he opens in the CO?

Thanks.

[CruS]

Fold,
Fold

[whyzze]

3bet
3bet

[mookboi]

Fold both. I would fold them in position too (MP opens I'm on button).

KQ is an easily dominated hand.

[clowntable]

This question is boring because the stack sizes are missing.
If we are 1000bb deep, sure we call.

But we will go ahead and assume 100BB for the sake of argument:
We want his "attempt to steal%" and not his PFR%.
Assuming he is somewhat positionally aware I'll just go the easy route and say he raises 8% from UTG and MP and 24% from CP and BTN for a total of (8+8+24+24)/4 = 16%
So his opening range can be guestimated to be 24% from these positions.
KQo is in the top 9% of hands, assuming no other player is in the hand and he only calls us when we're beat:
Pot = 5.5, if we 3bet to 18bb -> 23.5BB and he needs to invest 14 to call so he gets < 2:1 odds.
I have a feeling that 3betting here is profitable esp if he calls 3bets tight like most villains.
He should RR with most that crushes us namely AA/KK/QQ/AK, he might fold one hand that crushes us AQ

tl;dr: Our hand beats his range -> 3bet

[Subzero_Wins]

K 3-betting it is, though I should point out his 3-betting calling range is what is relevent, not his opening range.

Well, I guess his opening range tells us how much he'll fold, but how much we care about what our hand is depends on his 3-betting calling range.

Also 1000BB deep makes position matter more so we should fold.

[orange]

Our hand does not beat his CALLING 3-bet range (if that makes sense). There was a thread regarding this in SSNl a bit ago. Basically, to those 3-betting, you have to be bet/calling all K/Q high flops right?

KQ does NOT beat his calling range of our RR. (ie. he opens, we 3-bet with KQo...he's not calling with QT and stuff like that). Basically, vs. an unknown, I really don't mind dumping KQo PF to a CO/Btn raise until I can figure out what he's doing.

[Subzero_Wins]

I agree with everything you said orange, but in this case it isn't an unknown, it's a TAG. You still dump it?

[orange]

I typically dump yeah. Cold calling can be okay sometimes (although highly debatable) as long as you're capable of making a move once in a while (ie. c/r-ing 459 boards).

Reraising is okay, but I typically won't do it vs. an unknown TAG. If he's raising every button I might consider it but KQ isn't really the best hand IMO to be doing it.

[Subzero_Wins]

Ok Orange one more question for you.

What're you calling with in the sb/bb when a taggy CO/button opens? I am literally 3-betting/folding everything, which is working out alright I just feel there are some hands I should be calling with.

Off the top of my head, the only thing I would maybe call with is KQs, KJs, and QJs. Any thoughts?

[kolotoure]

I fold when he has position on us but am 3-betting if we are button and he is CO

[orange]

Sub,
It really depends on what type of player he is/how he percieves you/and what you're willing to do postflop. I'll explain:

Since you already clarified that villan is a TAG, that takes the player type out of the equation. Vs. relative donks I really don't mind calling OOP with good showdown hands like KQo. We are often good vs. loose players when we hit our pair and postflop play vs. these guys isn't as difficult.

How he percieves you, if he knows you're a TAG and you know he's a TAG, you can enable yourself to do a few more postflop plays. I typically call alot of btn raises with pps (and RR sometimes to disguise my hand). Another great way of disguising your hand is to c/r more flops, or donk into the PFR. ie. You call his PFR with 33, flop comes 672 and you donk into him/c/r him. I think this is a great way to blend your range to where you can c/r with both air AND a great hand.

Most TAG opponents won't pick up on your specific tendencies at this level. Nor will they at SSNL unless they are super observant and you have hundreds (if not thousands of hands) on him.

So, in summary- against TAG openers, I call PF with QJs/KJs/KQs/alot of pps (99+ I probably RR), sometimes a bit looser if the stacks are larger (I play on AP where the stacks can get to 200bbs, which opens things up a bit).

[clowntable]

[ QUOTE ]
Our hand does not beat his CALLING 3-bet range (if that makes sense). There was a thread regarding this in SSNl a bit ago. Basically, to those 3-betting, you have to be bet/calling all K/Q high flops right?

KQ does NOT beat his calling range of our RR. (ie. he opens, we 3-bet with KQo...he's not calling with QT and stuff like that). Basically, vs. an unknown, I really don't mind dumping KQo PF to a CO/Btn raise until I can figure out what he's doing.

[/ QUOTE ]
What calling 3bet range would you put him on?

[Subzero_Wins]

Ok orange thanks for your input, I had been folding/always 3-betting 22-88 (and always 99+) but I'll try to mix it up more by calling.

Clown, not sure if that question is up for grabs or only for orange, but off the top of my head I would imagine 88-99+/AQ+ make up most people's 3-bet calling range.

[Brian O'Nolan]

3betting is totally dependent on your style/game conditions/etc, but I would say if you have a fairly narrow 3bet range KQ is not the first hand you should add in that range. Better to start throwing in some SCs and suited 1 gapper type hands occasionally. 3betting small pairs in position is kinda silly and I think borderline spewy. If you're playing 50NL and below and have to ask yourself, should I 3bet this... the answer is probably no.

[clowntable]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok orange thanks for your input, I had been folding/always 3-betting 22-88 (and always 99+) but I'll try to mix it up more by calling.

Clown, not sure if that question is up for grabs or only for orange, but off the top of my head I would imagine 88-99+/AQ+ make up most people's 3-bet calling range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, most people call 3bets that tight.
88-99+/AQ+ = 5.6%

Let me redo the math here:
Pot is blinds+4xBB raise from BTN = 5.5. We 3bet to 18xBB so for villain to call it's 23.5 to 14 or roughly 1.7:1 converting this to % we can see that villain has to call 37% of the time
In other words, if his calling % is 5.6% and he has to call 37% of the time we're looking for the number
37% of X = 5.6 which is about 15%
-> if villain has a calling range for 3bets of 88+/AQ+ we can show a profit by 3-betting him with any two cards if his steal % is > 15%

Heuristic rule of thumb:
If you don't want villains to show an immediate profit by 3-betting your raises you should be willing to call 3bets with a little over 1/3 of your opening range.

[ama0330]

I fold both times. Orange really summed it up well here.

[clowntable]

Previous discussion of this:
The 3-bet (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8080872&page=0&fpart=1&v c=1)