50nl - AK very deep

[whyzze]

Villian is horrible. 37/7/.77 - his AF by street is 3/3/infinite.

I have not seen him get out of line once...he is just a donk. I have been at the table a while and never seen him act like this.

I felt like folding the flop but decided that was too weak. I ended up folding the turn.


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

Hero (SB): $196.55
BB: $142.65
UTG: $55.00
MP: $50.00
CO: $308.20
BTN: $51.15

Preflop: Hero is dealt K/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 Players)
2 folds, CO calls $0.50, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, BB folds, CO calls $2.50

Flop: ($6.50) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4.00</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $18.75</font>, Hero calls $14.75

Turn: ($44) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $20.00</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $20.00 returned to CO

Pot Size: $44.00 ($2.20 Rake)

[NL Newbie]

If hes not got out of line i dont want to stack off with TPTK here, so id fold the flop.

Just going by the "not got out of line yet" read, so ill pick a better spot and go with this knowledge.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
If hes not got out of line i dont want to stack off with TPTK here, so id fold the flop.

Just going by the "not got out of line yet" read, so ill pick a better spot and go with this knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think he's got an 8?

Mack

[CruS]

Ugh, tough spot.
I think I fold the flop considering you are so deep and have no good idea where you stand in this hand. He could have you crushed.

[NL Newbie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If hes not got out of line i dont want to stack off with TPTK here, so id fold the flop.

Just going by the "not got out of line yet" read, so ill pick a better spot and go with this knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think he's got an 8?

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

With the knowledge of "hasn't got out of line" and his strong 'all in' betting pattern i'd rather go with folding.

I expect AQ to raise from the CO to a 7%PFR - He goes wild.

Do you think he has an 8? Whats your plan?

[mackthefork]

Honestly against that guy you describe I can't think of a single valid reason for folding that hand, with that aggression he's gonna go wild with other aces, and even PPs that didn't connect, I definitely call the turn anyways.

Mack

[NL Newbie]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly against that guy you describe I can't think of a single valid reason for folding that hand, with that aggression he's gonna go wild with other aces, and even PPs that didn't connect, I definitely call the turn anyways.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

.77 OP said??

Edit: Errr ok, i dunno how PAHUD gets .77 from 3/3/infinate(Can someone explain?????? wtf?).

So if he's very aggro, then by all means call the flop and turn.

Gee why the hell has PAHUD given .77? Typo by OP?

[CruS]

By the looks of it, you are gonna have to pay a lot on the river aswell.
Do you call a 1/2 pot river bet if a spade shows?

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly against that guy you describe I can't think of a single valid reason for folding that hand, with that aggression he's gonna go wild with other aces, and even PPs that didn't connect, I definitely call the turn anyways.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

.77 OP said??

[/ QUOTE ]

its only so low because he is extremely passive preflop.

[CruS]

remember how deep they are

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly against that guy you describe I can't think of a single valid reason for folding that hand, with that aggression he's gonna go wild with other aces, and even PPs that didn't connect, I definitely call the turn anyways.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

.77 OP said??

Edit: Errr ok, i dunno how PAHUD gets .77 from 3/3/infinate(Can someone explain?????? wtf?).

So if he's very aggro, then by all means call the flop and turn.

Gee why the hell has PAHUD given .77? Typo by OP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you edited in time I was just gonna quote this from OP

[ QUOTE ]
his AF by street is 3/3/infinite.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mack

[mackthefork]

Oh i never include pre in that number but i guess you gave the postflop numbers.

I'm calling him down anyway, probably half pot if the spade comes too.

Mack

[CruS]

I obviously missed something, I thought he was NOT aggressive?

@ Mack, ok, I can see what you mean. perhaps I'm weak in this situation. *considering*

[mackthefork]

Well for one he plays too many hands, and he limps and cold calls far too much, I'm prepared to stake at least 80 bucks on my AK here against someone this aggressive that he's limped with an ace and thinks he's got the nuts, someone who limps that much limps every single Axs and a lot of crappy aces as well as a good few 8s, there's no telling that he has a reasoned preflop strategy with this many holes in his game already.

Mack

[Brian O'Nolan]

Given stack sizes I think your line is fine. My guess is he mostly has an 8 here. AQ/AJ are certainly in his range as are FDs... there are plenty of bad players with these stats who only raise pf with 54s or something. Are you folding the flop with 100BB stacks?

[CruS]

I agree, I reread the thread now I saw you talking about the .77 AF. Missed that completely.

Do you still do this if he has this low AF?

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
Given stack sizes I think your line is fine. My guess is he mostly has an 8 here. AQ/AJ are certainly in his range as are FDs... there are plenty of bad players with these stats who only raise pf with 54s or something. Are you folding the flop with 100BB stacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

against this guy with 100bb I crai on the turn.

[NL Newbie]

Ok,

I didn't realise PAHUD uses preflop the total AF - Guess ill be using street aggression in my hand analysis when i play now so thanks OP.

I assume infinite means he's not called so the calculation can't be run to create a value? AKA he's bet and never called?

If you call turn, throw out a block river - 1/3rd. if its a spade i still like a block, we dont want Ax "value" betting us off the best hand. hell maybe he even folds an 8 /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'd say betting the turn(leading out for $30) has some credit to and its actually close IMO. Reasons for this are:

We're controlling pot size now and gain info if raised(Assuming he wont raise us with Ax).
We charge the flush draw if he just went wild and plans to check behind here.

On the other hand, we kill Ax's bets and he may let this go to a turn bet which he may of made had we just took a passive call/call line.

So its a coin flip, if you want to keep your pulse down then lead the turn. If you want to try mazimise EV vs Ax yet give flushes chance at a 'cheap'(or free) card then don't.

We can make this OOP spot work for us /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, I reread the thread now I saw you talking about the .77 AF. Missed that completely.

Do you still do this if he has this low AF?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, his action would imply an 8 much more often in that case, if i felt i had to fold this to the 20 or the 40 on the river, then it's definitely time for me to leave the table as I think i'm scared money, nothing personal.

Mack

[whyzze]

My thought were that I dont necessarily want to play a huge pot this deep with this hand...especially OOP...especially with that board.

Even if I am 200bbs deep I would not be happy about his raise. He wasn't utterly horrible, just loose passive preflop.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
My thought were that I dont necessarily want to play a huge pot this deep with this hand...especially OOP...especially with that board.

Even if I am 200bbs deep I would not be happy about his raise. He wasn't utterly horrible, just loose passive preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often did he fold to a flop bet? and how many hands did you have on him? over a 100 right?

Mack

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My thought were that I dont necessarily want to play a huge pot this deep with this hand...especially OOP...especially with that board.

Even if I am 200bbs deep I would not be happy about his raise. He wasn't utterly horrible, just loose passive preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often did he fold to a flop bet? and how many hands did you have on him? over a 100 right?

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

300 or so hands.

flop action: raise - 8% bet - 30% call - 12% fold - 22%

When he bet/raised his won@sd is 80%

[mackthefork]

Yeah thats not helped, you might have made the right call, guess we'll never know eh?

Mack

[Zen_Approach]

Calling the flop raise because it was "weak" to fold might have been a mistake in this hand. I wouldn't call a flop raise if I didn't intend to at least call the inevitable turn bet, especially if a non-threatening card fell.

I don't have a huge problem folding this flop against this opponent because of his wide range, his high winning percentage when betting/raising, and the fact that the villain hasn't done anything like this before.

BTW one of my first posts but I've been a lurker in the micro forums for a little while now.

[orange]

I call and check the river.

[Subzero_Wins]

Against someone this aggro it's call/call/call for me.

[Unknown Soldier]

c/c down

[kindergartencop]

i def. call turn and most always c/c rivers here.

[AZplaya]

I like a call and c/c river if the bet is reasonable. If he bets big on the river I would fold but I think you still have the best hand here maybe 70% of the time.

[barabe]

I would've probably folded on the flop reraise. His stats show him to be not so aggressive post flop. I would believe him for his hand considering his calling range, he could easily have an 89s or 87s, but then again, in this kind of situation a flush draw, or an ace with a low kicker then yours is possible. All in all though, due to his re-raise and his wide range, I would fold rather then putting myself into a commitment situation.

[kolotoure]

I c/c down as long as he doesn't make too big of a bet on the river

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly against that guy you describe I can't think of a single valid reason for folding that hand, with that aggression he's gonna go wild with other aces, and even PPs that didn't connect, I definitely call the turn anyways.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

.77 OP said??

[/ QUOTE ]

its only so low because he is extremely passive preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Turn counting pre-flop in aggression factor off IMO. Just use it as a postflop stat. We can see pre-flop from vpip and pfr.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok,

I didn't realise PAHUD uses preflop the total AF - Guess ill be using street aggression in my hand analysis when i play now so thanks OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not positive but don't think it does. PokerTracker does unless you uncheck the box though.

[Keitan]

c/c him down - or give up on the flop but i wouldn't.. calling the flop raise and giving up on a blank turn isn't so great imo

[cb4mvp]

I would call the turn and c/c a reasonable river bet.

[Waingro]

How is not a great spot to call him down? Villain thinks he has the nuts. I would call any bet on the river except a push.

[DaycareInferno]

i dont really like calling down after the raise on the flop. if i'm going to call that raise, i'm going to lead the turn. i like doing that, because worse aces often call, but almost never raise, and if i get raised again, i know i'm pretty well dead.