If I were to write a Book....

[Tien]

Hey guys

I'm the dude that wrote this article:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ID=#Post7828437 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7828437&page=0&vc=&PHPSE SSID=#Post7828437)


Apparently it was quite successful and well received in this forum.


The question is, if I were to write a 200-300 page book similar to the way this article was written in terms of content, would you guys be interested?

[Sean Fraley]

While the article was great, what are you going to add to the printed marketplace that isn't going to be covered in future volumes of PNL? Even if you did have some stuff to add, would it really be enough fill up a whole book? You are probably better off writing them as single articles and either submitting them to the 2+2 internet mag or, should you want to make some money off of them, solicit them to Cardplayer or Bluff.

[RichAM]

Tien, as I did enjoy your article and it has helped me a lot. What Sean Fraley said was about right ... submit to CardPlayer or Bluff ... also u might be able to help out on CardRunners also.

[Tien]

What is PNL?

It's not only me writing this book. I have a lot of top notch players interested in contributing to the book itself.

What you guys think you know about poker these guys would totally rip it apart.


Meaning restructuring the entire way small stakes players think.


Yes there is enough to fill up an entire book. Hell there is enough to fill up 2.

[Tien]

By the way, the printed market place really sucks when you are talking about learning how to actually CRUSH small stakes no limit.

That is what we are trying to accomplish with this book, step by step guides to truly crush small stakes, not just throw a bunch of useless / meaningless theories at you.

[Snafu'd]

I'd be interested, but I'm a bit of a book junkie. I agree with you that there is really nothing out there right now aimed at small stakes online no limit. I have no clue if this target market is large enough to generate adequate sales to compensate you for the trouble of writing a book though.

[hennnerz]

Couldnt you make it and ebook? cheap...

[whyzze]

Will you call the book "raise that [censored] up"?

I would absolutely have to buy it if you did.

[Tien]

This book is targeted for anyone from 2NL to 200-400 NL.

All the stuff in this book would allow any player within those limits to rise up and literally crush that limit.


So yea, we aren't just targeted 2+2 viewers here. There is a huge market of players out there looking to improve and there is no guide out there to show them the step by step ways that the higher stakes players have used to be where they are today.


Yea I was thinking about Ebook too.


Whyzze, If I wrote this book purely by myself for entertainment purposes, that would be the title of the book!!

[Monster207]

i really enjoyed your article as well. I read everything I can get my hands on and based off the previous article I definitely would buy it.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, the printed market place really sucks when you are talking about learning how to actually CRUSH small stakes no limit.

That is what we are trying to accomplish with this book, step by step guides to truly crush small stakes, not just throw a bunch of useless / meaningless theories at you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would buy it, but then for 30 bucks i'd be daft not to, but if you do do it, please take your time, no hurry like.

Mack

[Onaflag]

I'd buy it. Heck, I'll proofread it for you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif For free. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Onaflag........

[Xanta]

Tien, sorry if this comes off rude, but I seem to recall you gave the raise that [censored] up speech as your exit from poker. Do you still play?

[dnord]

To clear your head about this: you could sell a thousand of this book (in ebook format) tomorrow at $20 each. If you publish it will be a year and you'll get some ridiculous percentage of what we actually pay for it.

[Tien]

[ QUOTE ]
Tien, sorry if this comes off rude, but I seem to recall you gave the raise that [censored] up speech as your exit from poker. Do you still play?

[/ QUOTE ]


No, I am involved heavily in business and entrepreneurial activities right now.

There are many subjects that pertain to the book I could write that don't have to deal with poker but I could really help mold and shape mentalities.


But I have pretty much stopped all online playing.

[Tien]

[ QUOTE ]
To clear your head about this: you could sell a thousand of this book (in ebook format) tomorrow at $20 each. If you publish it will be a year and you'll get some ridiculous percentage of what we actually pay for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't thinking about using traditional publishing methods which I am very well aware the profits become very slim.

Just throwing the idea out there.

[Tien]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd buy it. Heck, I'll proofread it for you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif For free. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Onaflag........

[/ QUOTE ]

BASTARD!!!

[BevillTheDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a huge market of players out there looking to improve and there is no guide out there to show them the step by step ways that the higher stakes players have used to be where they are today.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why i hope you do NOT write this book /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Harry Fong]

[ QUOTE ]
Will you call the book "raise that [censored] up"?

[/ QUOTE ]

If so, I will take two.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
What is PNL?

It's not only me writing this book. I have a lot of top notch players interested in contributing to the book itself.

What you guys think you know about poker these guys would totally rip it apart.


Meaning restructuring the entire way small stakes players think.


Yes there is enough to fill up an entire book. Hell there is enough to fill up 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

PNL is the general abbreviation for Professional No Limit Hold 'Em (Flynn, Mehta, Miller), currently at volume one with a volume 2 being worked on right now and most likely another in the pipeline. Back when you were last here it was referred to as Small Stakes No Limit. They have the goal of starting with the basics and then teaching you how to analyze and plan the whole hand. I've read it and in my (admittedly limited) opinion the material from the first volume is really good and points to a lot of promise from the later volumes. These will deal with more specific elements of the game, as opposed to the first volume being pretty much devoted to NL fundamentals, and then Planning Around Commitment and Stack to Pot ratios (two key elements used in their method of hand planning). I strongly suggest that you read it before starting on your own book project to see how much of what they have to say overlaps with what you have to say.

In my previous response I did not mean to give the impression that I was totally against you writing a book. In fact, based on your previous articles I would encourage you to write a lot. Instead I wanted to point out that if you do you should meet the following requirements:

1) Meet a need that has not yet been met, either in one book or in the combination of other popular books on Hold 'Em. I don't want to pay $25 and find out that 75% of the book is simply someone else saying stuff that was contained in the other books I already own.

2) Make sure that any new material you have is sufficient to actually fill a book. After you and your associates have written what you have to say, compared it to the current body of work available for purchase, and discarded redundant material, you may find that what you have leftover is some of the most groundbreaking material ever to be written about small stakes NL. Unfortunately, it is all covered in 50 pages. Single sided. Double spaced. In this circumstance, publishing as a book would be a really bad idea. This doesn't mean that you don't want to release it in some commercial form, it just means that you need to find the medium best suited to the material, not vice versa. Maybe it would be really good as a series of magazine articles in CardPlayer, or maybe it would best be presented in a two hour video, or maybe a one day seminar. Either one would quite likely be able to make some money for you and return appropriate value to the customer.

Based on your previous work, I think that you have something important to say. I just think you need to analyze carefully as to the best way to say it.

[Tien]

What do you think you can learn more from, that article written in 30-40 mins or all those books compiled in your shelf? In my case, if I had read my article first instead of the half dozen books I've read, I'd be a much much much richer person.


I believe that it is the style of how I wrote it that pushed a lot of SSNL players to really change their game and force some of the things they weren't doing down their throats.


I haven't read those other books but I am really skeptical about "books" from these authors because most of the time they like to come up with these secret "theories" that I myself have never even heard of before.


If you compiled every single article written by actual PLAYERS on 2+2, you would have a book more powerful than anything written out there. I've learned more from articles on 2+2 than any book ever written out there.


It seems to me that the blood and mud poker players winning and losing everyday seem to have a much closer sense of reality than these big name authors.

[kolotoure]

pnl is written by online poker players who are also 2p2ers

[Lego05]

You wrote that article over a year ago and from what I understand you stopped playing or something like that. (I could be wrong.) So the question is can you make it relevant to the much tougher games faced today?

Also is it just going to be relevant to like 50NL and down or will it be good for 100NL-400NL? If it's just for 50 and down then just in my own best interest I'd rather you didn't since I don't need anybody improving on me. Lol...selfish. 100NL+ though I'd be interested in it.


So I guess my answer is: It depends.



Edit: I just saw you said relevant to 2NL-400NL....I still have some doubts that it would actually have too much on those bigger games though.

Also saw you said you have not been playing...and no offense but that makes me a little hesitant about your knowledge of current game conditions and how to take that into account.


I doubt that much of a percentage of my competition would actually get better due to your book so that's not too much of a concern for me. But still I'm not sure for those two other reasons.

[Onaflag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd buy it. Heck, I'll proofread it for you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif For free. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Onaflag........

[/ QUOTE ]

BASTARD!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif What'd I do? I'll still buy it even though you call me names.

Onaflag.........

edit: the tilt chapter should be written by a coauthor. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[margrades]

i decided to just follow that article you wrote. been really successful using your stategy. even printed at job to try to memorize. any additonal advice would be great, raise that [censored] up

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think you can learn more from, that article written in 30-40 mins or all those books compiled in your shelf? In my case, if I had read my article first instead of the half dozen books I've read, I'd be a much much much richer person.


I believe that it is the style of how I wrote it that pushed a lot of SSNL players to really change their game and force some of the things they weren't doing down their throats.


I haven't read those other books but I am really skeptical about "books" from these authors because most of the time they like to come up with these secret "theories" that I myself have never even heard of before.


If you compiled every single article written by actual PLAYERS on 2+2, you would have a book more powerful than anything written out there. I've learned more from articles on 2+2 than any book ever written out there.


It seems to me that the blood and mud poker players winning and losing everyday seem to have a much closer sense of reality than these big name authors.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a good point here. Yes, you frequently see books that contain theories and methods that don't necessarily translate well once you actually are facing opponents in a real game but that doesn't mean that simply because something is presented in a book it is unlikely to be good, applicable information. The key is to find out which books contain crap and which books contain good, usable lessons.

You say that since you stopped frequenting these forums, you have been learning about and pursuing entrepreneurial ventures. In this case, use some basic business sense.

You are suggesting a devoting time, effort, and most importantly money to produce a product to sell in small but highly competitive niche market where the customers tend to demand a discernable positive return on their investment. You also intend to do so with the disadvantage of not already having a contract for publishing and distribution with a publishing house with an already established name and reputation in this marketplace. Basically you are going in at a competitive disadvantage and have to convince a buying public that they should choose your product over all of the other ones being more aggressively marketed by publishers with more resources. Because of this, it is imperative that you be 100% absolutely sure that your product will serve the consumer better than any of the others that they are considering spending their money on. Not only this, but since currently the only marketing foothold you have is the reputation you and your co-authors have on an internet forum, your product needs to be so effective that word of mouth will generate sufficient sales and growth of market share in an appropriate amount of time. This leads to one important conclusion:

YOU NEED TO HAVE A VERY FLUENT FAMILIARITY WITH THE COMPETITION SO AS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR PRODUCT IN A FASHION AS TO BE AS EFFECTIVELY COMPETITIVE AS POSSIBLE.

This is why if you have not taken time to read and analyze the more notable of the poker books out there, you must do so now. Not doing so is the same as picking any random seat at any random table and starting to play poker without taking any time to analyze the types of opponents you are up against and the table dynamic.

I have read your articles here. They are damn good and have helped me tremendously. I assume that any other writings you do are likely to be of the same quality. I have never said otherwise. On the other hand, I will once again say don't be so dead set on producing a book without first making sure that it is the best way to accomplish your goal. At the very least spend a couple days at Border's and read some of the books you will be competing against. The worst that can happen is that you lose some time in the process. You may find out that your conclusion that poker books are generally useless is true. Then again you may find out that some people have published books that already do some of what you are trying to do, are already out there, and have better backing from a publisher to boot.

I'm not saying any of this as an insult, or because I don't want you to write. I'm saying it because I respect your previous work and don't want to see you lose time and money just because you have decided that presenting this information in a book is the only way to go.

[Tien]

[ QUOTE ]
You wrote that article over a year ago and from what I understand you stopped playing or something like that. (I could be wrong.) So the question is can you make it relevant to the much tougher games faced today?

Also is it just going to be relevant to like 50NL and down or will it be good for 100NL-400NL? If it's just for 50 and down then just in my own best interest I'd rather you didn't since I don't need anybody improving on me. Lol...selfish. 100NL+ though I'd be interested in it.


So I guess my answer is: It depends.



Edit: I just saw you said relevant to 2NL-400NL....I still have some doubts that it would actually have too much on those bigger games though.

Also saw you said you have not been playing...and no offense but that makes me a little hesitant about your knowledge of current game conditions and how to take that into account.


I doubt that much of a percentage of my competition would actually get better due to your book so that's not too much of a concern for me. But still I'm not sure for those two other reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]


I am bringing together a host of much much better players than I am to put together the actual game application. Players ranging from 400 NL to 5000 NL.

So you won't have to worry about the content not being there by a retired fool like me writing it.

[Tien]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd buy it. Heck, I'll proofread it for you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif For free. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Onaflag........

[/ QUOTE ]

BASTARD!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif What'd I do? I'll still buy it even though you call me names.

Onaflag.........

edit: the tilt chapter should be written by a coauthor. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

just kidding, you would have gotten a free book!!!

[Tien]

Sean Fraley

You are 100% correct.

[Pokerdemic]

[ QUOTE ]
Some 6max Fundamentals

Now that I have decided to walk away from poker and pursue other ambitions, I have decided to give something back to community that I have received so much from. This comes from a player that played primarily (only) 6max 200NL, 400NL, and 600NL ***(when the games were fishy)***.

[/ QUOTE ] (my emphasis)

I think this is what Lego is talking about. The games have changed from what I hear, but if you are working together with a number of other players, it wouldn't concern me much. I think online 6max is a niche that is still relatively open, examples from PNL made me think the writers had FR 3/6+ as their primary audience.

[iminurhead]

write it, they will come. i just hate educating the donks and there dead money...lol

[ICMoney]

Even if it only has one good idea that helps me win a few extra pots a week it will be worth it.

Will def buy.

[Pokey]

Not to pee in your Cheerios or anything, but a few months ago I approached Mason (Malmuth) about possibly writing a book, to see if 2+2 would consider publishing it. His response:

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Pokey:

I'm not optimistic. Right now we have committments to a lot of books (for us) and this include five (and possibly six) books on no limit cash games. So for us to work another one in it would have to be exceptional.

Furthermore, I don't believe that intermediate or beginner material has much sales potential. The market has matured and the sales of those level books is now quite poor. You can see this yourself by going to Amazon.com and looking at sales ranks.

If you finish a manuscript, we can take a look at it, but I really doubt if we would have much interest.

best wishes,
mason


[/ QUOTE ]

He's right -- the market is FILLED with beginner and intermediate poker books right now. Even worse for potential writers (like you or me) is that many of them are written by "poker celebrities" like Annie Duke, Phil Helmuth, Dan Harrington, Phil Gordon, Doyle Brunson, T.J. Cloutier, etc. Since you don't have a famous name, you don't have a draw. Beginners are going to see a book by you and a book by Phil Helmuth and they're going to say "who the hell...oh, WAIT! I know Phil Helmuth! I'm buying THAT ONE!" Maybe your book is a masterpiece and maybe (OK, certainly) Phil's is a steaming crap pile, but the beginners won't know the difference. Until they're good enough that they don't need the book, they won't recognize good advice versus bad advice. That's why I'm always happy to see a new Cloutier or Helmuth book hit the market -- they'll make the fish WORSE rather than better. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

In short, unless you've got a brilliant marketing strategy or you're secretly Clonie McGowan, I'd say you might want to reconsider this project.

[soded]

Pokey, I'm curious, what niche in poker would your topic have been on?

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
Pokey, I'm curious, what niche in poker would your topic have been on?

[/ QUOTE ]

My idea was to write a book about intermediate strategy (your overarching goals and a broad-based idea of how to achieve that goals) and tactics (techniques for implementing your strategy). I figured it would be an unusual book, since the first part would be quite theoretical (WHY we do what we do) and the second part would be quite practical (HOW we do what we do).

[Spanky1974]

If either of you guys writes a book that doesn't get published, I would be happy to ship $50 for a bad photocopy of it. I've learned much much more from both of you than any author in my small poker library. Check out Pokey's new article, and you will see what I mean. For anybody that hasn't read and studied Tien's 6max starting guide, you are missing out on real fundamentals. All free on 2+2!

[Leviathan101]

[ QUOTE ]
If either of you guys writes a book that doesn't get published, I would be happy to ship $50 for a bad photocopy of it. I've learned much much more from both of you than any author in my small poker library. Check out Pokey's new article, and you will see what I mean. For anybody that hasn't read and studied Tien's 6max starting guide, you are missing out on real fundamentals. All free on 2+2!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree

[inverted]

I would buy it, having it in ebook form would be a plus

[ama0330]

Pokey, Tien,

Write an e-book and sell it on Ebay/online. With digital delivery all you would have to do is send files to people and they ship you money. Files are content protected to protect against piracy - you don't need a publisher.

If this is something you are interested in PM me.

[EMc]

Pokey could write stuff on a cocktail napkin and itd still be one of the best strat books out there.

[deehi]

Tien,

I have been keeping up with you on this forum and I noticed that you are interested in IM, which I am also involved in doing.

I think that while the general poker community would be tough to reach as Pokey mentioned, the person that is attempting to get better at poker,and more specifically online poker, is going to find your book ONLINE.

This would involve marketing your book through a website built to reach the specific target market:
"How to Crush Small Stakes No Limit blah, blah, blah"
and setting up the privacy protection for downloads.

This can be done on the cheap for the internet. Especially since you are talking about an ebook.

Even, if you sold 10 copis(which I believe that the 2p2 crowd would buy more than that) you would come out ahead.

Also, remember a few things. When you are talking about a book, PNL may be the definitive work on NLHE,but everyone cannot comprehend what it is saying. I have bought the book, I understand some of it, while at the same time,I need to come on here to look at the study sessions to understand other parts of the book. Its not always what you say, its how you say it. Tien, in his articles, at least the "Raise it Up" one, was very clear and concise. Not a lot of theories and "secrets" as he mentioned. Look at the number of replies that confirm that he was making a valid point.

Have the games online truly changed so much from I believe it was around December of last year til now? I would say they haven't. Its not as if we have entered into a "New Age of Poker Play" beyond the realm of what was being played last year. Tougher play in some regards, but you are still getting the first time noob that has just heard about poker in the dorm or the penny home games that he's been invited to and is hooked.

Raise it up!

[Tien]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to pee in your Cheerios or anything, but a few months ago I approached Mason (Malmuth) about possibly writing a book, to see if 2+2 would consider publishing it. His response:

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Pokey:

I'm not optimistic. Right now we have committments to a lot of books (for us) and this include five (and possibly six) books on no limit cash games. So for us to work another one in it would have to be exceptional.

Furthermore, I don't believe that intermediate or beginner material has much sales potential. The market has matured and the sales of those level books is now quite poor. You can see this yourself by going to Amazon.com and looking at sales ranks.

If you finish a manuscript, we can take a look at it, but I really doubt if we would have much interest.

best wishes,
mason


[/ QUOTE ]

He's right -- the market is FILLED with beginner and intermediate poker books right now. Even worse for potential writers (like you or me) is that many of them are written by "poker celebrities" like Annie Duke, Phil Helmuth, Dan Harrington, Phil Gordon, Doyle Brunson, T.J. Cloutier, etc. Since you don't have a famous name, you don't have a draw. Beginners are going to see a book by you and a book by Phil Helmuth and they're going to say "who the hell...oh, WAIT! I know Phil Helmuth! I'm buying THAT ONE!" Maybe your book is a masterpiece and maybe (OK, certainly) Phil's is a steaming crap pile, but the beginners won't know the difference. Until they're good enough that they don't need the book, they won't recognize good advice versus bad advice. That's why I'm always happy to see a new Cloutier or Helmuth book hit the market -- they'll make the fish WORSE rather than better. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

In short, unless you've got a brilliant marketing strategy or you're secretly Clonie McGowan, I'd say you might want to reconsider this project.

[/ QUOTE ]




I am not really afraid of writing a book and not being a big name writer.

There are millions of books / best sellers out there on a million different subjects being written by average joes and turning into very popular books.


What the poker world really misses is a no BS book about how to really win.

I read all these poker books riddled with theories, but none of them actually have taught me how to make money.


That is why it took me 8 months to figure out what I learned in the article I wrote.



I believe that the selling point of this book is the down to earth non BS approach to it, written by those actually in the trenches duking it out day by day.

I can see that this book can produce a very cult like following especially if sold online and it has a very specific niche market that it will sell to: beginning / SSNL players looking to improve.


I have already started on the downswings / networking section of the book which I feel would be an incredible benefit to poker players out there. Things I learned in the business world that I feel can give a different perspective to poker players.



What the hell, I have nothing to lose by going forward with this book.

[Tien]

[ QUOTE ]
Pokey, Tien,

Write an e-book and sell it on Ebay/online. With digital delivery all you would have to do is send files to people and they ship you money. Files are content protected to protect against piracy - you don't need a publisher.

If this is something you are interested in PM me.

[/ QUOTE ]


How I thought about selling this book is very similar to that.


1) Create an internet website solely for the purpose of this book with merchant account or paypal etc etc.
2) Sell this book on Ebay / other auction sites.
3) Promote this book on other websites that have a large gathering of poker players looking to improve.


Get a strong enough support from buyers online and eventually get this book published in bookstores.


I understand that it is nearly impossible to get it published on 2+2 unless the content of the book is really damn good.

[corsakh]

Poker is a skill game and as such it requires a professional to write it. I mean if you decide to write a book about golf you need someone like Tiger Woods to write about it. Otherwise people will go - "who the heck is this and what does he know about poker". So from commercial point of view, content isn't really an issue here. Mike Matasow will sell more in a a book about playing chinese poker with hookers than you about beating 5/10NL for 5ptbb. And publishers aren't exactly charites and 2+2 is one of them.

So ye, the best bet in my opinion would be going ebook and targeting good forum (ith, ftp, etc) and rakeback communities. People you know and people who know you.

ps Discounts for bookings in advance? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ZingZhang]

What about a Pokey/Tien collaboration? I think most of us would be ever so slightly interested in your collected works guys /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Everything Sean has said makes good sense, but if the book is well underway there is no reason to give it up. The cult-like following is fairly likely imo, certainly amongst 2+2 posters...and then you have all the semi-lurkers and lurkers, it's still a significant, though niche, market.

Whatever happens, please give us updates etc. and absolutely, definately...make it available in the U.K. lol

[EMc]

Tien,

Dont take this the wrong way, but you wrote one good article that well, was pretty basic IMO. I remember almost locking it cause I thought you were just some n00b that thought he had it figured all out. I think writing a book is a much more ambitious project then you are imaging.

[Tien]

I am not writing this book by myself EMc.

I don't claim to know it all, I plan to have much better players coming together to write the book.



And plus, you don't need aba20 or Taylor Caby level players to write a book for it to be beneficial to the current target market I am targeting. Even a solid winning player at 400 NL could spill out his secrets and it would be worth gold to lower stakes players.

[ama0330]

Raise that [censored] up!

[Sean Fraley]

I would like to clarify that whatever Tien does I'm going to buy a copy, especially if he is condensing the collective wisdom a group of winning NL players. If nothing else it will be better than the first NL book I ever purchased which was Phil Gordon's Little Green Book (I was suspicious when it gave advice on playing every single type of hand except top pair). I just felt that it was important to bring up the fact that publishing it as a dead tree book might not be profitable. On the other hand, the e-book idea sounds like it could work quite well.