Allow criticism of Mod’s in the forums

[SineNomine]

MicroBob makes the following quite reasonable request in a sticky at the top of the forum:

“Having issues with the way a mod does things in their particular forum is fine.
But everybody coming in here to vent about it doesn't strike me as the best use of this forum.

Consider contacting them directly via PM or, if the topic is significant enough, making a thread about it in that actual forum.
PM would be preferred in most instances I think...but if it's a discussion about a policy in the entire forum perhaps a thread would interest others. Use your best judgement.”

The difficulty is that it is not always possible to post criticism of moderation in the forum where the moderator has absolute power to delete or lock posts. I recently had and issue with a post that I thought was inappropriately locked. (I will not mention the moderator or the forum here lest I be accused of bashing.) While the post was somewhat indignant it was not profane, vulgar, or personally defamatory. It suggested that posts that the moderator did not think belonged in his forum but would be better placed in another, be moved there not locked. The post was promptly deleted as “100 % off topic”. I found a PM in my box threatening me with banishment. The mod suggested I should not have posted the criticism in the forum but rather; PM’d him, posted it in the forum suggestions, or PM’d Mat. Mat presumably has better things to do. Posting criticism here is apparently prohibited, I think rightly. It is much more useful I think to have discussions about the moderation of a forum within the forum. Confining all criticism of Mod’s to PM’s stifles legitimate debate that might lead to an improvement in the quality of the forums.

I do not wish to cause trouble. I very much enjoy and benefit from 2+2, more so than from many other sources that I actually have to pay for. If the powers here decree that no one is allowed to publicly criticize the Mod’s, then I will gladly keep my opinions to myself. However, I think that the forum loses something if such a rule is enforced.

[KneeCo]

Saying 'so-and-so sucks' is not productive.

[BluffTHIS!]

Saying 'de-green so-and-so' is not productive.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
It suggested that posts that the moderator did not think belonged in his forum but would be better placed in another, be moved there not locked. The post was promptly deleted as “100 % off topic”. I found a PM in my box threatening me with banishment.

[/ QUOTE ]

If true, that's WAY out of line.

[MrWookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It suggested that posts that the moderator did not think belonged in his forum but would be better placed in another, be moved there not locked. The post was promptly deleted as “100 % off topic”. I found a PM in my box threatening me with banishment.

[/ QUOTE ]

If true, that's WAY out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I think you should PM Mat about that. OTOH, if you have issues with a particular moderator's actions, you first course of action should always be to PM that mod. That's the much more polite and respectful thing to do. Then, if that still doesn't generate a suitable response, make a post about it in the mod's forum. Finally, if you still think the mod is out of line and won't respond to the forum, send a PM to Mat.

[MicroBob]

Good points Mr. Wookie.

[Lloyd]

You are misrepresenting everything.

You made a post about ZJ. I made it clear that we would have no new ZJ posts in MTT. Your thread was locked.

I started a thread asking for topics about cheating that should be discussed. You made a post saying that your ZJ post should not have been locked. That wasn't what the thread was about and allowing such a post to stay would sidetrack the purpose of the thread. Your post was edited as being 100% off-topic which it was. Alternatively, I could have just deleted your post but my preference is edit and explain versus simple deletion.

You were sent a PM suggesting that you review the T&C, MTT FAQ, and the ZJ rule. I explained that we were not allowing new ZJ posts. I explained that your post in my "cheating topics" thread was off-topic and that you should either a) PM me; b) PM Mat; or c) post in Forum Suggestions if you have an issue with Mods in general locking your posts. You accused me of censoring your thoughts. I said you were free to post whatever you'd like as long as it was in an appropriate thread. If it was about ZJ, it must be in the ZJ thread. If it's about Moderation, make the post here. And I said that intentional violation of the T&C, MTT FAQ, or "ZJ rule" could lead to suspension or permanent revocation of your postive privilidges.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It suggested that posts that the moderator did not think belonged in his forum but would be better placed in another, be moved there not locked. The post was promptly deleted as “100 % off topic”. I found a PM in my box threatening me with banishment.

[/ QUOTE ]

If true, that's WAY out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]
And to make the point again, his post was actually in a thread asking for what cheating topics needed further discussion. It WAS 100% off-topic, it had nothing remotely to do with the point of the thread. It's not like he made a separate post and that post (thread) was deleted. He tried to hijack another one.

[MicroBob]

Thanks for addressing the situation lloyd and shedding light on this issue.


I think you're doing a terrific job in the MTT forum with all the Zee-mania going on.


Sometimes it is necessary for a mod to make specific guidelines such as these when a topic as popular as Zee comes up.

[SineNomine]

Lloyd,
My first ZJ post went up an hour before you stickied the “one thread rule” to the top of the board. I did not intentionally flout any rules. I think that putting all of the ZJ posts in one giant thread makes it an impossible to navigate morass. However you’re the moderator and I am not, it is fundamentally your decision to make. I don’t think that I was 100% off topic in the second post. You asked for suggestions in how to handle the different aspects of the ZJ/cheating issue. I offered mine. Mentioning you by name was I think unnecessarily inflammatory on my part. I apologize.

I agree that someone has to have the responsibility and authority to police the boards. I regret that I violated the rules. It was not intentional. I think that threatening me with banishment was excessive. I do think that it should be possible for users to offer suggestions to the moderator within the forum. Useful discussion could well ensue.

I hope this does not become a running battle between us. I hope to post in your forum in the future. Please be assured that the next one will steer as far as possible from controversy. I am certain that the work you on the forums is time consuming and difficult. I appreciate the work of you and everyone here.

Let me take this opportunity to publicly apologize for inadvertently breaking the rules and for an unnecessarily inflammatory tone in the second post.

Having said that. What do you think? Is it appropriate for a user to make suggestions or even criticisms of the decisions of the moderators within the forum?

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I don’t think that I was 100% off topic in the second post. You asked for suggestions in how to handle the different aspects of the ZJ/cheating issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

The purpose of that thread was not to discuss "how to handle the different aspects of the ZJ/cheating issue". It was to compile a list of topics on cheating - unrelated to ZJ - that needed to be discussed. Sirio did make a post about how to navigate the "ZJ thread" but that wasn't the purpose of mine. That was why your post was essentially deleted. It was off-topic.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it appropriate for a user to make suggestions or even criticisms of the decisions of the moderators within the forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never lock/move/delete a thread without either PMing the person or explaining why I did something in the actual thread. If you (or anybody else) have a problem with how a particular post of yours is handled, that is often best dealt with through PM. I don't believe people should be making posts that ask why this or that was done to their specific thread. If you have a problem with a moderator's action, you should contact Mat.

Now, if you have an issue with a certain policy of Moderation, I think that's 100% appropriate to post in a forum. If it's a policy that affects only a specific forum, the post should be made there. If it affects multiple forums, the post should go here. I have no problem with you or anyone else making a post in MTT saying, for example, that mutliple threads about Zee Justin should be allowed and Moderators are wrong to move/lock/delete additional threads. But that needs to be a separate post, and not made within an unrelated thread (yes, I understand you think it was related in YOUR case but I'm talking bigger picture here). Nobody is trying to stop criticism of moderation.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don’t think that I was 100% off topic in the second post. You asked for suggestions in how to handle the different aspects of the ZJ/cheating issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

The purpose of that thread was not to discuss "how to handle the different aspects of the ZJ/cheating issue". It was to compile a list of topics on cheating - unrelated to ZJ - that needed to be discussed. Sirio did make a post about how to navigate the "ZJ thread" but that wasn't the purpose of mine. That was why your post was essentially deleted. It was off-topic.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it appropriate for a user to make suggestions or even criticisms of the decisions of the moderators within the forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never lock/move/delete a thread without either PMing the person or explaining why I did something in the actual thread. If you (or anybody else) have a problem with how a particular post of yours is handled, that is often best dealt with through PM. I don't believe people should be making posts that ask why this or that was done to their specific thread. If you have a problem with a moderator's action, you should contact Mat.

Now, if you have an issue with a certain policy of Moderation, I think that's 100% appropriate to post in a forum. If it's a policy that affects only a specific forum, the post should be made there. If it affects multiple forums, the post should go here. I have no problem with you or anyone else making a post in MTT saying, for example, that mutliple threads about Zee Justin should be allowed and Moderators are wrong to move/lock/delete additional threads. But that needs to be a separate post, and not made within an unrelated thread (yes, I understand you think it was related in YOUR case but I'm talking bigger picture here). Nobody is trying to stop criticism of moderation.

[/ QUOTE ]

All I can say is that I am glad other mods aren't like you because I wouldn't post on 2+2 anymore. Your ability to throttle discussion is amazing. 2+2 is a message board, people should be able to post what they want (obviously not spam). Members of this forum don't go from forum to forum to read what they write. They usually stick to 1 or 2 forums, which is why there are cross posts. Why the [censored] would you put a ZJ thread in NVG. Not many people in NVG really care about ZJ. It will get a lot more responses in the mtt or stt forum. Sometimes you want to post something that only a certain group would apply too. I once asked the short handed forum whether I should spend 10k to get into a tournament. That was the only forum that I was posting in at the time. Thankfully there were no mods back then who felt like showing their mod power by incorrectly moving the thread . Was it OT, yes. Did I care what people in any forum besides HUSH cared, no. Probably the same reason that Jurollo posted about a MTT fantasy baseball league. How come you didn't move that to the sports forum (i think the right forum for the thread is MTT, but following your rules it should be in sports). Your textbook modding is annoying as hell (there are several mods like that though who move threads to different forums when they were fine where they were)

[MicroBob]

Nick B. -

interest in general policies is fine. But you are making this way too personal.
I don't know if you have some sort of history with lloyd or not...but I'm not liking the direction this is going.

If we're going to continue this discussion lets at least try to keep things civil everybody.

Thanks.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Why the [censored] would you put a ZJ thread in NVG. Not many people in NVG really care about ZJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are obviously missing out on some of the better ZJ threads, by not reading some of the other forums!

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why the [censored] would you put a ZJ thread in NVG. Not many people in NVG really care about ZJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are obviously missing out on some of the better ZJ threads, by not reading some of the other forums!

[/ QUOTE ]

I look at most of the forums but a lot of members do not. For example, this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4901326&an=0&page=0#Post 4901326) gets 220 responses in MTT, gets moved to NVG and only gets 40 more. Is that really what should happen, moving threads that kill the discussion?

[NoahSD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why the [censored] would you put a ZJ thread in NVG. Not many people in NVG really care about ZJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are obviously missing out on some of the better ZJ threads, by not reading some of the other forums!

[/ QUOTE ]

I look at most of the forums but a lot of members do not. For example, this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4901326&an=0&page=0#Post 4901326) gets 220 responses in MTT, gets moved to NVG and only gets 40 more. Is that really what should happen, moving threads that kill the discussion?

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the best example you can come up with....

[William]

When you have a problem with a Mod, he usually tells you that you can go and complain about him at the Forum suggestions.

I quate from "Policy on Mod bashing in this forum" sticky from Microbob:

[ QUOTE ]
Any future posts in here criticizing a specific moderator will be locked and I will direct you to the information in this sticky.


[/ QUOTE ]


The other mods send you here to complain and the mod here tells you you can't complain here, go back to the forum you come from.

MWAHAHAHA /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MicroBob]

If you believe a specific mod is not giving you a fair shake or letting you criticize then you can always contact an admin (Cola or Mat) with your concerns.

In fact, I think you can contact an admin about a mod even if you acknowledge that the mod IS giving you a fair-shake.


i don't want attacks in this forum to become personal.
Otherwise it would jsut become the designated 'mod-bashing' forum and let whatever personality clashes might be out there to be tosses back and forth in here.


I don't want this place to the be the mod-bashing or name-calling forum. I just don't think it's very productive.


I hope people can understand where I'm coming from with this.

[William]

I am not having problems with anyone, Mod or not It's just that every time somebody complains about a Mod, the Mod replies that one can always post a complain in the Forum Suggestions forum.
You guys should get this straighten out.

[MrWookie]

Then you tell him, no, the Suggestions forum isn't for complaining about a specific mod and you should deal with it by PM between you two, by a thread in your forum, or by a PM to Mat.

[Sponger.]

In talking with some mods that I know, I have been told there are many people who "take their job too seriously". I couldn't really figure out who would fit this until I saw Lloyd work his magic in the MTT forum.

gj!

[SineNomine]

Actually I agree with you. It is apparent that Lloyd works very hard on the MTT forum. Managing the ZJ thread has to be a nightmare. (I think if it were me I would have taken the cowards way out and moved all the ZJ posts to NVG.) In retrospect, I regret making a big deal out of his locking/editing my posts. I got a tad hot when the subject of permanently suspending my posting privileges came up in the context of what I felt was an unintentional error. (Actually at the time I thought I made a righteous post. I now believe I made an error. I believed he edited my post because it was critical. I now believe that he edited it because he thought I was trying to hijack his thread. I was not indeed trying to do that, but I understand that that is how it looked to him.)

I thought about posting these thoughts yesterday but did not want to bump the read up to the top. But since Sponger already bumped it I might as well go ahead.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
In talking with some mods that I know, I have been told there are many people who "take their job too seriously".

[/ QUOTE ]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Orly.jpg

[SineNomine]

[ QUOTE ]
In talking with some mods that I know, I have been told there are many people who "take their job too seriously". I couldn't really figure out who would fit this until I saw Lloyd work his magic in the MTT forum.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes, so much for my reading comprehension. I missed the “too” in Sponger’s post. Actually then I don’t entirely agree. And I do entirely feel like a moron.