low pairs being 3bet preflop, is calling correct here??

[Noobler]

Two hands from my last session. I usually always call these for set value, but I have to throw them away so often on the flop that I am starting to wonder if I am spewing money.

Villain is 12/8/2 over ~60 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($26.35)
BB ($37.55)
UTG ($16.50)
MP ($24.30)
Button ($14.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $3.5</font>, UTG folds, Hero ???

2nd hand

Villain is 21/16/2.25 over ~40 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($23.80)
SB ($27.60)
BB ($26.95)
UTG ($10.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero ???

[whyzze]

calling in hand 1 is better than in hand 2

[wslee00]

BB has a strong hand in hand 1 since UTG called first time around. You will probably stack him if a 4 comes out on the flop so call.

hand 2: it looks like a steal attempt, so he could be 3-betting light. If this is the first time he's pulled this, then I just go ahead and fold since there really are no flops w/o a 4 that you're going to really like.

[Genesis]

It's getting close in both, but I think you can call.
Hand 1: 2.25 to win about 27.
Hand 2: 2.5 to win about 24.
You'll flop a set a little less than 1/8 of the time. So, you want something like 10 to 1 or better odds to account for the times you will get out-setted.

[Hail Eris]

H1: Call because villain is a nit and his position is weaker so you expect to him to have a big pair very often.

H2: Fold because this guy can be 3betting a lot of stuff here and you're rarely stacking him when you flop a set. You can call and play poker, but you don't have set value.

[mackthefork]

By my rule H1 is a call, H2 is a fold.

Regards Mack

[AFCBeer]

I think we are overestimating the amount of times the villain will stack off here. Its also much harder to get stacks in from OOP which counts against us in hand 1. We might just about be getting implied odds here but its not clear cut.

If villain has KK and flop is A 4 x then I doubt stacks are going in and I also doubt stacks are going in if he has AK.

[mojed]

[ QUOTE ]
It's getting close in both, but I think you can call.
Hand 1: 2.25 to win about 27.
Hand 2: 2.5 to win about 24.
You'll flop a set a little less than 1/8 of the time. So, you want something like 10 to 1 or better odds to account for the times you will get out-setted, or don't stack the villain .

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

These are marginal situations, as your implied odds are 10:1 at best. I still call, but expect the play to break even, when playing purely for set value. What can turn these into +EV situations is if you have a read on the betting patterns of the reraisor, so you can call a CB when missing the flop, if you think the villain misses. This can be possible when people bet different amounts on the flop depending on whether they hit or miss, which isn't all that common but does happen still.

Edit: Didn't see you were in the SB in hand one, so I guess the advise of exploiting villain even when you miss doesn't really apply here.

[Genesis]

Yeah, a few minutes after I made my post I realized how wrong it was. You probably want more like 15+ to 1 odds in most cases to call purely for set value since you won't get his whole stack every time. Getting 3bet changes things somewhat since opponent's range is now skewed towards the bigger pairs, and being OOP doesn't help.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, a few minutes after I made my post I realized how wrong it was. You probably want more like 15+ to 1 odds in most cases to call purely for set value since you won't get his whole stack every time. Getting 3bet changes things somewhat since opponent's range is now skewed towards the bigger pairs, and being OOP doesn't help.

[/ QUOTE ]

11-1 is the bare minimum to break even against an overpair if all the money goes in everytime you flop a set and you fold to a C-bet all other times.

Mack

[cb4mvp]

Fold them both. Hand one you're going to need to flop a set and still have a good board for the villain's hand in order to win a sizeable pot, and you're behind his range. Kinda makes me think of when Aejones did the well. One of his rules of thumb is to not give action to nits, and a good way to do that is to just give him your dollar and move on to the next hand. I would let hand two go as well. 44 is just a crappy hand to call 3bets with.

[hennnerz]

Fold both. I hate people for calling in these spots.

I usualy look at the 3bet raise I`m facing, in hand 1 2.25$ more, then I multiply it by 10 = 23$. If I consider that I will invest 2.25$ into pot and get at least 23$ in return from it I call otherwise fold. Problem is people will often 3bet AK, AQs or some other hands and you will not get paid of enough if you hit. I fold them in both spots.