50NL I take aggressive line oop, I have no plan

[bellytimber]

No reads, I sat down a few minutes ago and this is my first action.


Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $21.70
Hero (BB): $49.25
UTG: $38.65
MP: $61.95
CO: $43.20
BTN: $35.05

Preflop: Hero is dealt K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($1.75) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $0.50</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $2.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7.00</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $5.00

Turn: ($16.25) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $11.00</font>, MP calls $11.00

River: ($38.25) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero?

should I have even been in this spot?

[sightless]

bet flop

[kassdog]

raise pf

[Micro Donk]

as played shove river

[pkrPlayerBr]

The way you played I would bet $11 as a value bet.

But I would probably raise depending on the players who limped pf. But I would def bet, raise flop, possibly shoving someone shows aggressiveness.

[bellytimber]

guys thanks for the replies. Here are the two main problems I'm having:

1. What does my hand look like to villain? I never played the hand like I was drawing. My flop c/r makes it look like I flopped something made and that I'm scared of draws. If he thinks my range consists largely of hands that are scared of draws, then when the draw actually hits on the river should I a) let him bluff river so he can rep flush? or b) should I shove and possibly get called by 87 or 56 or something because he thinks I'm FOS?

2. more importantly, wtf are we putting villain on? What hands limp pf and then play the other streets this way? And if I'm in a wa/wb situation, is it wise to bet river and/or turn?

[Danimal 3000]

I agree that your hand looks made, some pair or 2pr or pair+draw something. Hard to rep overpair because you didn't raise.

2) Hard to put villain on a boat. Do you think he made a weak raise and just called a 3bet on the flop with 2pr or a set on a super wet board? I think Villain has pairs, trips &amp; draws way more often than a boat here.


Shoving is bad here b/c you're less likely to get called by hands you beat. If you want get value out of trips/straights/flushes, weak lead the river. A hand so weak he just calls would have folded to a push, a semi intelligent player bluffs away his stack, and if he boated up then you got screwed, pound the table and curse

[kolotoure]

A small river bet is sexy for the reasons danimal said. Raise pf and lead the flop

[shoxbb6]

raise pf

[bellytimber]

[ QUOTE ]
raise pf

[/ QUOTE ]

many of you suggested this. My thinking is basically: I have KQs in the BB, a decent hand that could become powerful with a good flop, but right now I am behind the range of the preflop raiser, and who knows what the first limper is going to do if I 3bet. If I 3bet pf I am now building a big pot OOP and unless I hit the flop hard I am going to be in a weird spot. Yeah I will usually raise this in position, and I will sometimes raise it OOP if the opponent is right, but my standard play here oop is to call and see a flop. Why do you guys think that is wrong? Genuinely interested.

[Maunzekater]

Huh? There is no preflop raise. Maybe you mix sth up?

Edit:
[ QUOTE ]

my standard play here oop is to call and see a flop. Why do you guys think that is wrong?


[/ QUOTE ]
Because you like to take down the pot preflop. You ARE building a big pot OOP on the flop. And if they call, their most likely hands are small PPs, SCs or less likely broadway cards. Then THEY need to hit the flop hard if they call.

[Spinners]

[ QUOTE ]
A small river bet is sexy for the reasons danimal said. Raise pf and lead the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet about 1/2 pot on river. He will only raise with a full house imo and will call with a straight, trips or smaller flush.

[DaycareInferno]

i don't like a check or a value bet on the river. i'd rather just shove the rest in. all i'm thinking when this happens is:

a)i have a flush
b)my opponent called a flop 3bet and turn bet

[Guruman]

I think if you're going to make a big play like that then you have to stop pushing so hard on the turn. MP demonstrated interest in the pot by making the initial raise, and then demonstrated strong equity in it by calling the very strong checkraise that you made.

Since we know he's got a piece of the board and has his nails dug in, we're more likely to get a good turn action by checking than betting (unless you have a read to the contrary). If we bet, then we should not be surprised by a call here. If we check, then its possible that villain will check behind for pot control (or to take the free card with a worse draw), or will bet an amount that makes either a peel or a shove there appropriate. If he bets the pot we can shove and try to push him off of an overpair.

Also, a turn check after a big flop checkraise like that should look suspicious and should make villain less inclined to bet a weaker overpair.

Just my .02

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like a check or a value bet on the river. i'd rather just shove the rest in. all i'm thinking when this happens is:

a)i have a flush
b)my opponent called a flop 3bet and turn bet

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is bad for the following reasons:

villain will fold his weaker hands and we loose value
villain will call with hands that have us beat. (yes, I think a full house is quite likely here, turn call looks suspicious to me)
(If I was villain and I would be holding trips or a straight this would give me an easy fold)

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise pf

[/ QUOTE ]

many of you suggested this. My thinking is basically: I have KQs in the BB, a decent hand that could become powerful with a good flop, but right now I am behind the range of the preflop raiser, and who knows what the first limper is going to do if I 3bet. If I 3bet pf I am now building a big pot OOP and unless I hit the flop hard I am going to be in a weird spot. Yeah I will usually raise this in position, and I will sometimes raise it OOP if the opponent is right, but my standard play here oop is to call and see a flop. Why do you guys think that is wrong? Genuinely interested.

[/ QUOTE ]

according to your HH there was no preflop raiser.

Reasons to raise preflop:
1)you want to inflate the pot for when you catch
2)you should have an equity advantage against the ranges of the limpers (and therefore want the $$ in now)
3)you want an excuse to take the pot down on Axx flops or paired flops
4)you'll know where you stand when you get action postflop (a problem you encountered in this hand by not defining your own)
5)aggression generally counters positional disadvantages when stacks are deep enough to matter.

[DaycareInferno]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't like a check or a value bet on the river. i'd rather just shove the rest in. all i'm thinking when this happens is:

a)i have a flush
b)my opponent called a flop 3bet and turn bet

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is bad for the following reasons:

villain will fold his weaker hands and we loose value
villain will call with hands that have us beat. (yes, I think a full house is quite likely here, turn call looks suspicious to me)
(If I was villain and I would be holding trips or a straight this would give me an easy fold)

[/ QUOTE ]

that's crazy talk, man. so you're saying that this would be a good spot to bluff if you thought villain had 2pair or trips? of course not, because villain ISNT you, and he shows no signs of folding whatsoever.

[castigar]

Don't 3bet, raise. A 3bet in this position isn't good but a raise is.

[bellytimber]

--yeah, my mistake guys, I confused my own hand, I do see the value in raising pf, and of course you guys are right, it was limped to me.

--I wasn't being results oriented when I posted this hand; I knew I had put myself in a lousy spot on the river before the results came in.

but FWIW here are the results: I ended up shoving the river when the flush hit, I thought he couldn't put me on a flush and maybe he would call with a flopped straight or trip 6s or even a skeptical 8. Wishful thinking, I know. He had flopped 444 and boated up on the turn.

I mostly agree with Guruman's comments on the turn, though in this particular case, had I checked he would have bet and I would have had a tough decision.

I was interested in you guys that said lead with an alluring amount on the river, but stacks make it a problem, if I bet $10 for example into a $38 pot and he shoves, then yeah I'm almost definitely beat but I'm still getting like nearly 4:1 on the river call and I'm just going to have to make that call 100% of the time.

thanks all very much for your comments!

[spivey]

Shove this river. Bet flop. Raise preflop.