NL50 - KK weird spot

[Keitan]

Villain is 27/16/1

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($54.80)
CO ($101.55)
Button ($48.75)
SB ($62.25)
Hero ($119)
UTG ($52.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $7.1</font>, Button calls $4.60.

Flop: ($13.95) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8.7</font>, Button calls $8.70.

Turn: ($31.35) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $33.45 (All-In)</font>, Hero ???

[bknollenberg]

what's weird about this? he probably has an ace, but by checking the turn you handed him leverage on a silver platter and put yourself in this spot. i bet / fold the turn.

is it wrong that i actually read him for a set / turned boat here? seems like a good play, because you initially read him for the obvious A, but he could be putting you on a hand like AK.

[C4LL4W4Y]

bleh, sometimes i check flop....idk, i'm pretty tempted to call here. most players would check behind that turn with an ace and hope to snap off some value on the river. i guess it depends on how bad he is...the worse, the less i call.

[Keitan]

I really don't see b/f as an option here. On the turn I've already put in $15 of the $48 effective stack. If I bet say $20 on the turn, and then villain shoves am I really going to fold getting 13:83 / 7:1ish ???

[traz]

I usually check the flop

[Kasane]

[ QUOTE ]
bleh, sometimes i check flop....idk, i'm pretty tempted to call here. most players would check behind that turn with an ace and hope to snap off some value on the river. i guess it depends on how bad he is...the worse, the less i call.

[/ QUOTE ]

problem is, this is not a good player. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, just saying he could have an ace, but not know that he's better off checking. Pushing seems odd, but then, what else is he going to do? Bet 1/2 pot?

Bet/fold this turn can't be done. We'd be committed at that point...

[Keitan]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually check the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Pls could you explain. Do you mean after 3betting and OOP with any holding?

[Keitan]

I've been at the table with villain for over an hour and he seems competent/decent/thinker.

Not many have given an answer as to whether they call or fold the turn. Tho some have said they check flop (pls explain this) which def changes how the hand plays out, but as played who calls or folds the turn??

edit: leading/shoving turn is just bad im assuming

[traz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually check the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Pls could you explain. Do you mean after 3betting and OOP with any holding?

[/ QUOTE ]

With an ace on board, yes. KK/QQ turns into a bluff and AK has 2 more streets to get a guys stack anyways.

As played I fold turn. I don't think QQ pots the turn

Edit-- I mean, if you think a guy will call with QQ on the flop then betting is fine, but I just think people should think about why they're betting and not just autobet

[Keitan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually check the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Pls could you explain. Do you mean after 3betting and OOP with any holding?

[/ QUOTE ]

With an ace on board, yes. KK/QQ turns into a bluff and AK has 2 more streets to get a guys stack anyways.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK that makes sense. If you don't mind couple more questions.. How often does villain bet if checked to in this situation? Does he usually bet with certain holdings? Are you always c/f with KK/QQ? Obviously somewhat opponent dependent.. but assume unkown after the 3bet pot, and you're OOP.

[wooziephantom]

I think u played this fine... Don't mind checking this flop (I do actually check more flops after 3-betting pre), but out of pos I would probably play it like u did.. And then just fold it on the turn, if he's somewhat decent he doesn't push air/hands u beat here... I kinda got the feeling that he made a very loose call pf and hit his set and turned a boat... That's kinda the only hand that really makes sense to me here, or maybe ak trying to get value from aq, aj-hands... don't know tho

[Keitan]

Villain's line just made no sense to me. I think any A or boat just about always checks behind on the turn.

I called, villain showed 88. But I'm not convinced this was a correct call esp given some replies in this thread /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[mookboi]

I almost never check this flop. Dude is just as scared of that ace as we are if he ain't got one, if he does, great, we are out.

As played, hrm. 2 aces on board... His AF is really low, but that could be just because you don't have enough hands on him. If this is over a decent sample, I fold. Otherwise, I might gamble &amp; call the push, expecting to win here like half the time.

[traz]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost never check this flop. Dude is just as scared of that ace as we are if he ain't got one, if he does, great, we are out.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't check because I"m scared of the A, I check because he's scared of the A. I'm almost never folding to a bet if I check here

[sightless]

after you bet and he calls the flop
I generally c/f the turn and do so here


But If I have an ace at this spot Im pretty likely to play as you played your KK

[tan-eli]

Isnt the flop bet quite small...? Villain could be making a floating or something if he thinks that bet was weak.

Or is that amount standard to you, about 2/3? I usually put after 3betting something 10-11$ atleast to that sized pot. Would less be enough, like in this hand?

[Keitan]

[ QUOTE ]
Isnt the flop bet quite small...? Villain could be making a floating or something if he thinks that bet was weak.


[/ QUOTE ]

True, good point.. the flop bet is a bit smaller than my regular cbet, and it's probably better to make it near pot-size if i'm betting here, to reduce likelihood of a float that would put me in a bad spot on the turn.