Noob question about combo draws

[JH1]

I normally play full ring but am currently trying to switch to 6 max. My winrate is fairly poor (read: in the negative) compared to my full ring winrate which is fairly descent.

So I had a question about hands like combo draws. I have been reading the stickies for this part of the forum and came across Tien's post part of which dealt with felting combo draws. This feels like a whole different world compared to the way I play combo draws in full ring where I normally bet or call and play off of implied odds in a multiway pot.

I find 6 max totally different in that so many pots are HU so I've been kind of lost with these types of hands. I'll make up an example here as I'm not on my home PC with PT:

25NL - 100 BB stacks
Hero is dealt A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif in CO

folds to Hero who raises $1
BB calls

FLOP
3 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB bets $2

This is where it gets really weird for me. My natural instinct says to call or raise (not AI) to get a free river card and try to hit for implied odds which won't necessarily get paid off. I believe that it would actually be profitable to shove here even though I am overbetting the pot by $18 /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I've got 12 clean outs for straight and flush draws and as many as 18 if just TP is good enough. So even if I get called here I'm going to win at least 48% of the time. And then Tien says that you actually make the money when they fold so you add in your fold equity to make this major +EV as I'm probably only going to get called by another combo draw which I likely beat, 2 pair, overpairs, sets, and some TPs.

Is this actually correct? That would be awesome if I actually finally figured this out. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jamougha]

Make a normal size raise to about 7. Checking the turn if called is fine.

[faarcyde]

I switch it up between raising the flop and shoving pretty much any turn and just calling down depending on bet sizes. You have position, there is a lot different stuff you can do here. How you play a draw is dependent on what type of villain you are facing, there is no one particular way to do it.

[bknollenberg]

[ QUOTE ]
I switch it up between raising the flop and shoving pretty much any turn and just calling down depending on bet sizes. You have position, there is a lot different stuff you can do here. How you play a draw is dependent on what type of villain you are facing, there is no one particular way to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed. if he will regularly get all in with top pair, like a KJ type hand, and you know this, i think it's totally cool to get all in on the flop if possible. well, it's profitablet to do so. if he has KJ, you're about a 58% favorite to win, and even if he has one of your cards discounted (AJ), you're still a 55% favorite.

i think that raising here is the right move no matter what. if he pushes over your raise, you hellmuth call. if you flat call the flop and hit an A or a Q (assuming he doesn't have either of those if he has a J), he's going to slow down. so in these situations you need to get as much money in "good" (odds wise) as you can before you hit an A or a Q (if they are live and win it for you) and he slows down. or even a club or a K for that matter.

[JH1]

Ok, you guys make really good points about using position to get more value out of this. I like the line of raising to $7 becuase it still gives you ~3:1 on a turn shove and you have the option of checking like you said.

I suppose you would save the flop shove if the positions were reversed to make a tough decision easier?
Example: same hand - Hero is BB
Flop - Hero bets $2, Villain raises to $7, Hero bets all-in

[JH1]

That's a good point too BK. I suppose it depends on what type of villain you're up against and shows why position is so important and how much control it gives you.

make a normal raise, call shove. Also I agree with Jamougha that checking behind on turn if blank falls is right.

[bknollenberg]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, you guys make really good points about using position to get more value out of this. I like the line of raising to $7 becuase it still gives you ~3:1 on a turn shove and you have the option of checking like you said.

I suppose you would save the flop shove if the positions were reversed to make a tough decision easier?
Example: same hand - Hero is BB
Flop - Hero bets $2, Villain raises to $7, Hero bets all-in

[/ QUOTE ]
if position was reversed i would probably follow that line almost always because villain can be making that raise / will make that raise with total air or something like a straight draw a lot more often, but even that depends on his read of you. i actually like being OOP more in this spot, which may be counterintuitive, but even if he is bet calling, his range narrows quickly and if he throws out a raise you can easily shove.

[bknollenberg]

[ QUOTE ]
make a normal raise, call shove. Also I agree with Jamougha that checking behind on turn if blank falls is right.

[/ QUOTE ]
see i don't like that move, and it's because you're giving away way too much information by checking there. yes you risk the push over your raise, but if you hit a club on the river and are raising and / or betting, your hand is not disguised at all. your best bet for checking is to spike a K, but even that is problematic depending on villain's hand since it puts an overcard over what could be his top pair / middle pair.

i think you have to bet the turn as well, because if you can then read him for a draw you gain fold equity on the river. checking is way too weak and obvious given the strength we've shown and if the river then blanks and he leads out at the weakness you showed raising a flush draw, which is way too typical, you have to dump.

[JH1]

So how would play this then if he just flat calls our flop PSB and the turn blanks? Would you go 2/3 or a full PSB again? I suppose that another flat call would tell you he's on a draw most of the time at which point you'd put in a good river raise to any non-draw completing card?

EDIT: I'm assuming we're still discussing the OOP hand here

[Craggoo]

Im a little drunk but this is a clear hand where you put in as many bets and raises as the donk will let you. This bet on the flop screams AJ-QJ which I *think* we're a favorite against. if hes willing to felt that little then make a note and valuebet him to death afterwards.

[Spurious]

shoving is a coinflip here, and most people dont fold J and an overcard here.

I think most people advice shoving didnt think about it.
You can put in a little raise, to something like 7, but dont shove here, it is a bad play.


Imo, i think shoving the flop with a combodraw is bad poker. You wont get called by too many hands that would make this play highly profitable.

Raise here to 6-7$ and reevaluate.

[Spurious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I switch it up between raising the flop and shoving pretty much any turn and just calling down depending on bet sizes. You have position, there is a lot different stuff you can do here. How you play a draw is dependent on what type of villain you are facing, there is no one particular way to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed. if he will regularly get all in with top pair, like a KJ type hand, and you know this, i think it's totally cool to get all in on the flop if possible. well, it's profitablet to do so. if he has KJ, you're about a 58% favorite to win, and even if he has one of your cards discounted (AJ), you're still a 55% favorite.

i think that raising here is the right move no matter what. if he pushes over your raise, you hellmuth call. if you flat call the flop and hit an A or a Q (assuming he doesn't have either of those if he has a J), he's going to slow down. so in these situations you need to get as much money in "good" (odds wise) as you can before you hit an A or a Q (if they are live and win it for you) and he slows down. or even a club or a K for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are only a 60:40 favorite over KJ with without clubs, if he got clubs it becomes even worse, and if he got one of your overs with a club, you are in even worse shape.

[Craggoo]

[ QUOTE ]
shoving is a coinflip here, and most people dont fold J and an overcard here.

I think most people advice shoving didnt think about it.
You can put in a little raise, to something like 7, but dont shove here, it is a bad play.


Imo, i think shoving the flop with a combodraw is bad poker. You wont get called by too many hands that would make this play highly profitable.

Raise here to 6-7$ and reevaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont believe anyone here is advocating straight out shoving his flop bet, but if the donk gives you the opportunity to 4 bet all-in on the flop you take it. Amirite?

[JH1]

Spurious, just a quick question about when you're figuring out EV. I haven't ever discounted my flush cards that other players could have when figuring out odds, is this normal to do (I am not trying to be a jerk here, I am seriously asking)? Because I've often thought about what if 1/2 my flush cards are already in the muck, but I have no way of knowing so I just included them anyways. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[JH1]

And I'm really fine w/ KJ calling. As BK said before I'm going to be a coinflip at worst (of course I drop to around 40% vs a set I believe) but against most of his range I'm at least 50-60%. Add in my fold equity and I'm a big favorite.

Still agree with you on raising the flop, but not shoving.

[Spurious]

[ QUOTE ]
Spurious, just a quick question about when you're figuring out EV. I haven't ever discounted my flush cards that other players could have when figuring out odds, is this normal to do (I am not trying to be a jerk here, I am seriously asking)? Because I've often thought about what if 1/2 my flush cards are already in the muck, but I have no way of knowing so I just included them anyways. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont discount your flushcards, which are in the muck already, but if you figure out your equity, and you know you opponents hand ofc you discount.

I talked about discounting one out, because i dont think we are a big favorite here most of the time, and i listed all the possible hands he could have.

[JH1]

ok thanks for clarifying that for me.