Flopping a flush draw, what to do?

[wooziephantom]

This hand might seem extremely trivial to some of the more experienced players, but I'm still a novice and are interested in hearing your thoughts on a fairly typical hand...

Full Tilt Poker Game (6 max) - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em -
Seat 1: MP ($29.35), is sitting out
Seat 2: CO ($30.25)
Seat 3: BTN ($25)
Seat 4: SB (Villain) ($54.75)
Seat 5: BB (Hero) ($24.70)
Seat 6: UTG ($54.70)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dizzyphantom [J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]
Folded around to SB
Villain raises to $0.75
Hero calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

Villain bets $1.25
Hero raises to $4.30
Villain raises to $12
Hero??

Do I call, fold or push here? I've only played around ten hands at the table at this point and have no read on opponent.. And what about pf?

[nukewell]

probably fold pre flop for starters, depending on villian of course. usually if TAG player raises SB u should make them for a strong hand (imo anyway) and its not like J8 is the nuts.

i would just call behind the flop...i hate this raise as youve turned your hand into a bluff pretty much when u stil have really good chance to win a big pot and your in poisition. now u have to put a lot more money in and u are probably only drawing to 9 outs max and little/no fold equity..i prob fold but meh

you should probably think about what u would do if the villian re raises you before u raise this flop. If u are raising for valuethen u should be willing to take it all the way.

im still learning too so other more experienced players might see it different, gl

[cooker3]

[ QUOTE ]
i hate this raise as youve turned your hand into a bluff pretty much

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he has J high, it wasn't exactly strong to begin with.

First of all, buyin full
Fold pf
Now fold it

[wooziephantom]

Thanks for reply! I disagree with just calling this flop as I don't get direct odds to make a call profitable. The rest of the hand also gets more difficult to play, if i don't hit the turn I have to fold to a bet.. It becomes hope-for-the best-poker. At the same time I think I have a fair bit of folding equity when raising this flop as it's likely that pf- raiser has missed...

[wooziephantom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hate this raise as youve turned your hand into a bluff pretty much

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he has J high, it wasn't exactly strong to begin with.

First of all, buyin full
Fold pf
Now fold it

[/ QUOTE ]

I always buy in full..
I do lower my standards for starting hands in a blind vs. blind battle, that's why i called, but it might be borderline, don't know..
Do u agree in the raise on the flop tho?

[Gigglegirl]

I think you played the hand absolutely fine.
Pf you're getting 2/1 with a playable hand in position.
On the flop, the raise is good as you have FE on a board that missed a lot of hands and it may buy you a free card. If he just calls, you can check behind a missed turn or fire again depending on how you feel.
But unfortunately it didn't work out. When he re-raises you, you have to fold.
Hes not folding now once hes got 1/2 the effective stacks in. Hes repping a big pair or set which has you crushed but even in your best case scenario, which looks unlikely here, where he has whiffed overcards or a pp lower than 88, you'd only have ~50% equity.

[cooker3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hate this raise as youve turned your hand into a bluff pretty much

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he has J high, it wasn't exactly strong to begin with.

First of all, buyin full
Fold pf
Now fold it

[/ QUOTE ]

I always buy in full..
I do lower my standards for starting hands in a blind vs. blind battle, that's why i called, but it might be borderline, don't know..
Do u agree in the raise on the flop tho?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah sorry, I was thinking it was 50nl, my bad
I still don't like the call, just that little too trashy for my liking even if it's suited
Yeah I like the raise on the flop, gets A high and maybe small pairs to fold which are beating you.

[nukewell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hate this raise as youve turned your hand into a bluff pretty much

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he has J high, it wasn't exactly strong to begin with.


[/ QUOTE ]
no need to be a smart arse...i meant he has a flush draw and can call in position look to catch the draw and get paid off hopefully


[ QUOTE ]
I think you played the hand absolutely fine.
Pf you're getting 2/1 with a playable hand in position.
On the flop, the raise is good as you have FE on a board that missed a lot of hands and it may buy you a free card. If he just calls, you can check behind a missed turn or fire again depending on how you feel.
But unfortunately it didn't work out. When he re-raises you, you have to fold.
Hes not folding now once hes got 1/2 the effective stacks in. Hes repping a big pair or set which has you crushed but even in your best case scenario, which looks unlikely here, where he has whiffed overcards or a pp lower than 88, you'd only have ~50% equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

i really like your reasoning, is definitely better than my thinking. Even though u got pushed off here its probably good for your image too as you will play monsters like this aswell...like i said im still learning too

[YanP]

i think preflop can be fine if you're a confident postflop player, not bad odds with a mediocre hand. but after only 10 hands at the table i'd probably want to wait for more reads before calling with these types of hands in the blinds, i'd want more of a read on c-bets etc.
if he c-bets a lot then raising the flop is good, calling is good too imo if you feel you're getting enough implied odds (which you prob are)

once he 3-bets the flop i think i try and find a fold here without a read, you're not getting the odds, you have very little FE.

if you had some read on his bet/3-betting range, and he could be doing it with overs and TPTK then it could be a close run thing

a decent (but fairly wide) range imo is overpairs, sets, TPTK, even TPGK and maybe two pair, a bluff represented by 82o

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

103,950 games 0.005 secs 20,790,000 games/sec

Board: 4c 5h Th
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.938% 44.90% 00.04% 46673 40.50 { Jh8h }
Hand 1: 55.062% 55.02% 00.04% 57196 40.50 { 99+, 55-44, AKs, AhQh, AhJh, ATs, KhQh, KTs, T5s, 54s, AKo, ATo, KTo, T5o, 82o, 54o }



with the pot at $10.10, and 5.05 of your stackin, if you push he calls. 19.65 of your money into an effective pot of $49.40 giving you 39% of the pot, and needing anything under 45% to make this profitable.

but without reads this is a very hard range to assign a bet/3bet range,

[/math rant]

EDIT:[ QUOTE ]

Hes not folding now once hes got 1/2 the effective stacks in. Hes repping a big pair or set which has you crushed but even in your best case scenario, which looks unlikely here, where he has whiffed overcards or a pp lower than 88, you'd only have ~50% equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

the range prob is closer to 50/50 and i probably fold given the info we have, but with a read and a looser player a push could be a good thing

[cjp010]

Easy fold

[wooziephantom]

Thanks for stoving.. Was pretty sure that my equity for pushing here was better than what gigglegirl argued (but not much better)...
I am a fairly confident post flop player (at these stakes) and don't freeze if I get called here, even tho I would like to take down the pot on the flop..
Another thing that I didn't mention was the timing of his moves (which I put high emphasize on because I think it's an important tell at these limits), they didn't exactly exert a lot of strength..

[cooker3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hate this raise as youve turned your hand into a bluff pretty much

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he has J high, it wasn't exactly strong to begin with.


[/ QUOTE ]
no need to be a smart arse...i meant he has a flush draw and can call in position look to catch the draw and get paid off hopefully


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I really was being a smart arse, saying that your turning into a bluff is a bit silly considering what he has, it only makes sense if he has a pair. He is behind about 99% of the time.
You probably just worded it badly but still.