NL 10 - QQ preflop discussion

[Bruut99]

My buddy and I had a little discussion about his pre-flop play with QQ. What is the best line here and WHY?

no specific reads on the opponents. Just joined the table.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($10.70)
UTG ($7.70)
Hero ($12.85)
Button ($5.80)
SB ($12.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $2</font>, SB calls $1.95,

Hero calls.

I villain is very aggro, I sometimes 4bet QQ and call shove. But usualy I prefer calling the 3bet and CR flop if no overcards fall. Against unknown probably check call flop if no overcards fall and evaluate turn.

[Student Caine]

Do we want to call here even with the other $2 from SB?

Honest question...I am not sure how his involvement affects us here.

[sbarber]

One of these guys will surely have AK, AA or KK. Call the PF, then look for exit sign if A or K hits but Q doesn't. If Queen hits, you have to try to get all in regardless of a A or K I would say.

[Bruut99]

I think calling here is really really bad. What is the point? what do we hope for? A non-A-K-flop? that is happening about roughly 50% of the time. If the A or K comes we give up the hand? If there is a A or K on the flop. Wich hand is gonna pay us of? Only KK or AA in my opinion. This is a fold or all-in situation in my opionion.

[monkover]

against a very aggro player def 4bet preflop.
vs a nit I might end up folding this preflop.
everything depends on reads though.

[BoerfSt]

If you call you have to get it all in on every non ak flop.Button looks like he has you beat but I think we have a better hand then sb.Folding this pre flop seems wrong :S

[Bruut99]

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Folding this pre flop seems wrong :S

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elaborate please

[BoerfSt]

I didnt say it is wrong, it can be the right play. It is true we have no reads.. sb would raise pf if he had us beat so we hope on a non ak flop and get it all in against the shortstack.If button shows you AA or KK so be it. Just dont stack of against the sb(but he could have 1010 JJ and thinks he has the best hand on a 8-9 high flop). If sb pushes the flop, even without an A or K and sb calls or raises we can let go. But not pre flop I think. But plz I can be wrong /images/graemlins/smile.gifI also am here to learn and not to teach, its just my thaught I would like to share so we can get the maximum value out of these fantastic form /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[cooker3]

Depends on opponant a lot but I like pushing as a default as there is some nice dead money in there

[MrWooster]

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Depends on opponant a lot but I like pushing as a default as there is some nice dead money in there

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I don't agree - at 10NL - unless you have a good read on villain that he will stack off PF with AK or JJ, it is very rare at this level for villains to get it AI pf without AA/KK.

[monkeymaps]

anyone like just pushing here? seems SB's range cant be that great prob alot of small PP and AQ and AK and 3 better has less than a PSB left after the flop? Witout reads though its hard to give villans any sort of range but SB's range is more important IMO

[monkeymaps]

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Depends on opponant a lot but I like pushing as a default as there is some nice dead money in there

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I don't agree - at 10NL - unless you have a good read on villain that he will stack off PF with AK or JJ, it is very rare at this level for villains to get it AI pf without AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

for 50BB stacks I see people getting it in with all kinds of crap I dont disagree with you for full stacks but alot a people who dont buy in full stack off pretty light IMO. pushing isnt really great agianst SB though but prob ok agianst shortie but prob not max ev agianst SB.

[monkover]

didn´t see villain didn´t buy in full. with only 50bb i´m stacking off here too as bb is never calling with AA or KK ever just to hope that you push.

[kokiri]

I think that the button's short stack warrants a push.

I don't believe SB has a hand, and assuming he folds to a push, you're getting the odds against the button to play vs as tight a range as AK,KK+ (you put $5.50 more in to win the $4.50 in the pot + $4 more from button; you're 40% vs AK, KK+). Add in some crap he might call with, the SB calling with rubbish etc. and I think a push is a solid move here.

[Bruut99]

A call is definitely out of the question here?

[ama0330]

Is this thread for real? We have one of the best hands in unlimited hold them, and you guys want to FOLD preflop? Whaaaaaat!

Here are your two options:

1. 4bet and call a shove

If you 4bet you aren't folding, period. Don't ever 4bet QQ and fold to a shove. Once you've made the 4bet, when he shoves you are committed.

If you decide to 4bet, the following must be true:

a) His re-raising range includes hands worse than QQ (i.e. JJ, AK)
b) He will also shove these hands over your 4bet

If you don't think these two are going to be true, then you can:

2. Call and see a flop

You'll be out of position in a big pot, but bear in mind that the SB's money makes your odds a little better. You are going to have to deal with some tough spots though. Here's what I would do if I decided to just call.

1. I'd assign him a range of TT+,AK, maybe AQ, heavily weighted to TT+, and more likely QQ+.
2. Id check to him on all flops, including the ones I flopped a set on. Then its up to him - if the flop comes AKx I will probably check fold. If the flop comes 52Tr and he bets, then it depends on the size of the bet. Its pretty ballsy and difficult for a player to bet with AK here.

NOTE

ALL this assumes that all players have 100bb. In this hand, you have an EASY shove. EASY shove. Button is too short to ever consider folding, and the SB would almost definitely re-raise AA or KK. How can you put yourself behind in this spot? Shove all day. The SB's dead money just sweetens the deal.

[ama0330]

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A call is definitely out of the question here?

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In this particular hand, yes. With bigger stacks, no.

[Bruut99]

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A call is definitely out of the question here?

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In this particular hand, yes. With bigger stacks, no.

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That's what i thought.